ANPA 41 Web Conference

Mon. 10th August – Fri. 4th September

The program: ANPA_Programme_2020.pdf

Week 1:
Mark Johnson, Peter Rowlands,
Andrew Crompton.
Introduction and Welcome to Online ANPA
Mike Horner. ANPA Anniversay Talk
Peter Rowlands. Grand Unification
Louis Kauffman. Spacetime Algebra
Dino Buzetti. Self-organisation and Parker-Rhodes’ Inferential Semantics
Nicola Graves-Gregory. <2020 VISION: 21st Century Pythagorean Mathematics and 2020 Astronomology

17:17:38 From Cosmic Sojourner : Planets are number in magic squares.
17:19:10 From Enrico Mazzi : can we free some bandwidth by shutting down our videos?
17:19:39 From Mark Johnson : Is it a problem?
17:20:31 From Enrico Mazzi : today it is for the first time, maybe it¡¯s just my internet
17:20:54 From Mark Johnson : I’ll turn mine off
17:22:06 From Graham : no problem my end but I’m on a fast connection
17:30:10 From Cosmic Sojourner : Love cannot be fully comprehended without the geometric form of the Chestahedron as the heart center of the Platonic solids, as earth anagram.
17:30:41 From Louis H Kauffman : Francoise Chatelin
17:31:22 From Lauri Love : Qualitative Computing A Computational Journey into Nonlinearity
17:34:03 From Mark Johnson : wonderful! Thank you!
17:38:31 From Louis H Kauffman : Spencer Brown: Contraction of reference leads to expansion of awareness; expansion of reference leads to contraction of awareness.
17:38:58 From Graham : ISB: “Whatever you think it’s more than that ¡¦ “
17:39:26 From johntorday : Krishnamurti rails agains ¡®ego¡¯ getting in the way of Consciousness, for example¡¦¡¦so ego ¡®kills¡¯ Consciousness
17:42:21 From Cosmic Sojourner : Perhaps ego is consciousness, defined by the seven of astrology, and awareness is the incarnate spirit within, undefinable. One never steps in the same river twice.
17:43:40 From johntorday : In Bohmian terms, I think ego = Explicate, subjective, whereas consciousness = Consciousness of Cosmos
17:45:08 From Mark Johnson : yes – that fits with saying that the explicate doesn’t exist until the cell exists.
17:45:17 From Cosmic Sojourner : Perhaps awareness then is the awareness the cosmos is within?
17:46:10 From Lauri Love : Who, if I cried out, would hear me among the angels’ hierarchies? and even if one of them pressed me against his heart: I would be consumed in that overwhelming existence. For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we still are just able to endure, and we are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us. Every angel is terrifying.¡±
17:46:34 From Lauri Love : ¡ª Rainer Maria Rilke, Duino Elegies
17:47:17 From Louis H Kauffman : Conciousness, as a word, slides in the meaning we give it from simple awareness to detailed articulations. For example some traditions say ¡°Knowledge is structured in consciousness.¡± and it is a matter of viewpoint how that knowledge is held.
17:47:38 From johntorday : Yes, because that¡¯s actually how embryology as the way we are ¡®constructed¡¯ works, through endogenization of physical factors that have posed existential threats, that iterative process being what we think of as the evolution of physiology¡¦ the aggregate, our physiology as cell-cell communication emulates consciousness as the personal Consciousness of the Cosmos¡¦.i.e. both physiology and the Cosmos operate based on the same Laws of Nature
17:49:30 From Cosmic Sojourner : Consciousness is the circle, in first principle the point of the matter.
17:49:57 From Lauri Love : consciousness can be the egoic/self-other-distinguishing, mundane, point-focussed, causality-imputing and survival/comfort-orientated (ergotropic) modality, or it can be in transcendence of some or all of these restrictions, which might be what is being counterposed as awareness, up to the point of cosmic consciousness of identity-transparency (non-dual participation mystique)
17:50:32 From Lauri Love : (indeed communion)
17:53:09 From Lauri Love : i heard it once speculated that consciouness has an informational bottleneck (limited ‘baud-rate’), which would accord with it being restricted usually to things which require immediate attention in reponse to circumstance
17:53:22 From johntorday : Transcendence is the key, because that cross-cuts space-time, factoring out the material, leaving the energy flow from the Cosmologic Consciousness to our consciousness as a continuum, mediated by our cellular physiology. It is in this way of understanding that the cell and the atom are both based on Quantum Mechanics as deterministic and probabilistic
17:54:25 From Lauri Love : is this quantum -> atom -> cellular -> organic/organismic integration idea articulated anywhere i can access?
17:55:26 From johntorday : ¡¦.consciousness is constrained by independent calcium fluxes which can attain a wave collapse in what Maslow refers to as a Peak Experience, for example, i.e. where those independent calcium flows coalesce as one unified flow of calcium, emulating the sectoral flow of the Cosmos
17:55:58 From johntorday : Vectoral Flow
17:56:05 From Lauri Love : reminded now of Dino’s reference yesterday to Hestenes reading Clifford on the varieties of interpretation of number – something i am interested in wrt to numbers having shapes and comopsites bearing information about areas despite being conventually flattened into linear extent
17:56:20 From Cosmic Sojourner : In embryology, consider the primacy of the heart and blood cell in in development of life. The heart is primary to the mind development.
17:57:15 From johntorday : The heart may be ¡®primary¡¯ because in my opinion it references the pulsatility fo life
17:57:19 From Lauri Love : hmm, GABA / glutamate neurotransmission affecting chemicals often work through calcium channel modulation
17:57:38 From Richard : Emotions shape the Universe
17:58:02 From Lauri Love : (NMDA rather sorry)
17:58:33 From Cosmic Sojourner : All is number Lauri! It is not to weigh, measure, count, in primacy it is essence
17:58:51 From Lauri Love : accepted
17:58:53 From johntorday : Evolution of physiology is dependent on such receptors because the ¡®rate-limiting¡¯ step in physiology that connects us to the environment. For example, there were three hormone receptor duplications that occurred during the water-land transition that were existential for adaptation for land….
18:00:11 From Louis H Kauffman : Here is a puzzle for you. Squares of Fibonacci numbers are rightly viewed as areas. And the sum of the squares of the first n Fibonacci numbers is equal to a product of Fibonacci numbers because these squares pave a rectangle. For example 1^2 + 1^ 2 + 2^2 + 3^ 2 + 5^2 = 5 x 8. But also the sum of the squares of two consecutive Fibonacci numbers is another Fibonacci number. For example 5^2 + 8^2 = 25 + 64 = 89. This means that each individual Fibonacci number (with odd index) can be seen as an area. Further insight is welcomed.
18:00:56 From Lauri Love : as regards conjunctions, there’s a chap called Pensinger who has a theory that complex angular momentum interchange with the sun and other bodies is essential to life. i recently had the thought that when we feel the reaction force from the earth, we are also feeling it through the earth from the sun, and thence the galactic centre, supercluster centre, etc.
18:02:32 From Cosmic Sojourner : I am VERY interested in Saturn-Jupiter conjunctions!
18:02:32 From johntorday : Lou, I think the Fibonaci numbers emulate the sectoral flow of the expanding Cosmos, and the ¡®we¡¯ are following that trajectory. The ¡®area¡¯ is the expression of our three dimensional being as followers of that trajectory
18:03:05 From johntorday : Vector, not sector¡¦..
18:03:27 From Cosmic Sojourner : Absolutely John!
18:03:46 From Louis H Kauffman : Thank you John. I should add that all Fibonacci numbers are interpreted as areas. The even indices are differences of squares.
18:04:14 From Doug Matzke : I have a question about 12.
18:04:34 From Louis H Kauffman : What about 12. It is not a Fibonacci number.
18:04:37 From johntorday : Life evolves in response to an every-changing environment, of which the Saturn-Jupiter conjunction would be a part¡¦..gravity is essential for life as we know it, so the gravity waves from those planets would affect evolution
18:05:10 From Vanessa : 12=dodecahedron in my mind…
18:05:46 From Cosmic Sojourner : YES!!!
18:05:56 From Cosmic Sojourner : 12 is the singing spheres of music!
18:06:28 From Cosmic Sojourner : The vector equilibrium 12 tensegrity?
18:07:24 From Enrico Mazzi : that¡¯s an Astrolabe Louis!
18:09:10 From Cosmic Sojourner :
18:09:24 From Louis H Kauffman : We won¡¯t exclude 12 just because she is not a Fibonacci!
18:11:28 From Vanessa : dodec is full of golden section though Lou?
18:17:47 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. So 12 via the codec is a Fibonacci Relative.
18:15:20 From Graham : Yes, see (e.g.) ‘The Divine Proportion’ by Huntley
18:15:29 From Vanessa : hehe yes!
18:15:58 From Vanessa : Hunley-a good one
18:16:12 From Vanessa : Huntly, sorry
18:16:13 From Graham : He taught me maths at school
18:16:32 From Graham : and was a lay preacher
18:16:40 From Cosmic Sojourner : .
18:17:09 From Vanessa : notes of Iamblichus is a good one re quality of numbers
18:19:02 From Cosmic Sojourner : This all speaks to Gnostic principle of correspondence; the fractal. As above so below, as within so without.
18:19:33 From peter rowlands : There are twelve nilpotents in the Dirac algebra.
18:19:45 From Cosmic Sojourner : 12 semitones
18:20:52 From Cosmic Sojourner : -1/12?
18:20:56 From Vanessa : I thought I saw some paper proposing the universe is dodecahedral…
18:21:02 From Cosmic Sojourner : Fermat
18:22:01 From Graham : always 24 in the cone?
18:22:06 From Grenville Croll : 12 is 0110 in trinary it is an n-periodic number
18:22:46 From Cosmic Sojourner : Coincidence is Gods way of remaining anonymous per AE
18:22:58 From johntorday : Milk drop relies on surface tension¡¦.which has to be reduced for life to occur
18:23:55 From Graham : well hey I was born on the 12th
18:24:23 From Mark Johnson : I was born on the 13th 🙁
18:24:36 From Richard Heiberger : 12 lunar months in a solar year (approx)
18:24:41 From Graham : close but no cigar 😉
18:24:50 From Enrico Mazzi : The Astrolabe is one of the first examples of calculator. Make your own:
18:24:51 From Enrico Mazzi :
18:24:55 From Richard Heiberger : use your thumbs a pointer, then it can count 12 bones on the other four fingers
18:26:19 From johntorday : 3,4,5 are the smallest values for the Pythagorean Theorem
18:26:35 From johntorday : Oh, and they add up to 12!
18:26:54 From Doug Matzke : random points in high dimensional cube (n>>100) then the standard radius from mid point to random point is sqrt(N/12)
18:28:05 From Doug Matzke : Nicole, thanks for talking about awareness over consciousness! I agree
18:28:46 From Richard : Moon Circumference = 12 **7 feet and Moon Radius = 11!/7 feet
18:29:15 From Lauri Love :
18:29:21 From Doug Matzke : number of strands in anu=10
18:29:52 From Cosmic Sojourner : And earth:moon is my birthday 3/11=0.2727272727… and central to my TOE in NEYEN!
18:30:46 From peter rowlands : There are 12 fundamental particles: 6 quarks and 6 leptons
18:31:05 From johntorday : BTW, awareness is the fundament of epigenetic inheritance, which is necessary for evolution. The ¡®phenotype¡¯ is an agent for collecting data from the environment, particularly those data which signal for change relative to the organisms¡¦..that¡¯s awareness as distinguishing signal from noise¡¦..that in turn informs consciousness
18:32:50 From Vanessa : quark properties follow the same as movements of the corner cubies of a rubic cube..
18:33:12 From Cosmic Sojourner : 12 is in the quantum as well
18:33:48 From Lauri Love : Mobius transforms of a Doyle spiral (apollonius circle packing)
18:34:11 From Lauri Love : you can see the where there is one locus (the origin) after the rotation in the riemann sphere there are two loci: the point at infinity is the counterpart to the origin
18:34:17 From Cosmic Sojourner : Mobius Band is the 12 in 2 and 3!
18:34:20 From Lauri Love : the point at which all phases converge to degeneracy
18:34:31 From Lauri Love : if you go infinitely in *any* direction, you end up at the same point
18:37:16 From Cosmic Sojourner : Names are not labels
18:38:48 From Richard : Telepathy avoids names
18:39:21 From Cosmic Sojourner : When you name me you create me, when you label me you negate me~S©ªren Kierkegaard
18:40:16 From Doug Matzke : right about telepathy, but what is the “representation” that supports telepathy?
18:40:49 From Vanessa : the Robin’s mechanism of gps is thought to be quantum
18:41:13 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Perhaps it¡¯s time to wheel out William James with direct experience here? In Zen we have three nens: the first is experiencing, the second cognition, and the third one is where your discussion about names is¡¦ (Barbara)
18:41:20 From Rachel Moore : A great book about experiments regarding the effects of the electromagnetic field on humans
18:42:05 From Doug Matzke : doug |a|
18:42:07 From Rachel Moore : rachel |a|
18:42:11 From johntorday : jtorday |a|
18:42:16 From Lauri Love : |a|
18:42:18 From Cosmic Sojourner : chris |a|
18:42:36 From Graham : Lovely talk Nicola – thank you!
18:42:59 From Graham : graham |a|
18:43:00 From Doug Matzke : I like the time
18:43:08 From Vanessa : Vanessa_whil |a|
18:43:17 From Louis H Kauffman : This is a good time for me.
18:43:26 From johntorday : Thank you Nicola for that ¡®cleansing¡¯ talk
18:43:27 From Graham : I like this time
18:43:41 From Richard : Lovely talk Richard.llewellyn.jones |a|
18:43:52 From Enrico Mazzi : Thanks Nicola, that was wonderful
18:44:04 From chary : chary.r |a|
18:44:11 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : This time is good for me. My email is jikai7 |a| (Barbara)
18:45:16 From Vanessa : woops made mistake in email. this is correct one Vanessa_whill |a|
18:46:23 From Graham : Happy weekend all!
Week 2:
Grenville Croll. An Elementary Theory of Periodic Numbers
John Torday.

Evolutionary Biology and Quantum Mechanics

17:17:27 From Lauri : life as transimmiscibility
17:15:57 From Lauri : exaptation – the process by which features acquire functions for which they were not originally adapted or selected.
17:18:50 From Lauri : . o O { life/evolution as/with teleological attractor – Aristotelian ‘final cause’ – transactional evolution as opposed to only advancing witihout being informed by the future}
17:21:21 From Keith to Mark Johnson(Privately) : What is your email address? K
17:27:46 From Lauri : “Chemiosmosis is the movement of ions across a semipermeable membrane, down their electrochemical gradient. An example of this would be the formation of adenosine triphosphate (ATP) by the movement of hydrogen ions (H+) across a membrane during cellular respiration or photosynthesis.”
17:34:35 From Lauri : (rather than ‘recapulation’ of phylogeny by ontogeny, instead consider [self-]similar/superposed dynamics and patterns at multiple spatiotemporal scales, wherein regions of stability, or edge-of-chaos as in a fractal are mutually defined by the chaotic/agitational/dyshomeostatic regions which counterpose the homeostatic equilibria)
17:42:18 From Lauri : (interfaces intristically capture up to holography the informational relationship between inside and outside (consider Huygens surfaces of secondary sources) so lipid/water interfaces may facilitate the harnessing of negentropy the accessibility of interface interactions somehow, an “as above, so below” resource)
17:42:41 From Lauri : (echoes of laws of form)
17:43:30 From Douglas Matzke : also holarchry and holons from Rupert sheldrake
17:44:25 From Lauri : An amphiphile (from the Greek αμφις, amphis: both and φιλíα, philia: love, friendship) is a chemical compound possessing both hydrophilic (water-loving, polar) and lipophilic (fat-loving) properties. Such a compound is called amphiphilic or amphipathic.
17:46:02 From Lauri : microgravity may disrupt surface waves due to changing the balance between surface tension and the relative weight of fluids at interfaces
17:53:26 From Lauri : anecdotally [some] peak experiences require strong vertical alignment of nervous/energetic/informational meridia, particular the spine / central channels, suggesting a connection between verticality and informational integration through the gravitaitonal/momentum/Machian matrix
18:00:56 From Lauri : In chemistry, a zwitterion, also called an inner salt, is a molecule that contains an equal number of positively- and negatively-charged functional groups. With amino acids, for example, in solution a chemical equilibrium will be established between the “parent” molecule and the zwitterion. -Wikipedia
18:05:12 From Vanessa : went into deeeep level of consciousness….
18:05:25 From Graham : Question for John later: Did I understand correctly that some meteorites are pulsar generated?
18:05:38 From Colin Rourke : My email (Colin) cprourke |a|
18:06:23 From Enrico Mazzi : I have a question about X-Ray Cristallography!
18:07:08 From Enrico Mazzi : Crystallography….
18:09:54 From Astrid Johnson : Why did John T. say that biology mimics physics?
18:10:39 From Douglas Matzke : does anyone know who the “Keith” that was on before.
18:10:55 From Louis H Kauffman : Keith Bowden
18:11:19 From Grenville Croll : I have to leave. battery low. recommend john t takes a look at my kazuo kondo work
18:12:56 From Douglas Matzke : ok, I was wondering if that was him.
18:13:05 From andrew crompton : Andrew crompton
18:13:20 From andrew crompton : andrew |a|
18:22:07 From Vanessa : consciousness back to cell…maybe that represents us genetic engineers?
18:22:17 From Astrid Johnson : Seb, watch your French. 😉
18:22:52 From Astrid Johnson : So sorry, have to go to another meeting. Would have loved to stay and hear more discussion.
18:27:10 From Lauri : Homeorhesis, derived from the Greek for “similar flow”, is a concept encompassing dynamical systems which return to a trajectory, as opposed to systems which return to a particular state, which is termed homeostasis.
18:28:06 From peter rowlands : Keith Bowden, long-time member of ANPA, and organizer of many meetings.
18:30:14 From Vanessa : plenty of cloning Lou!
18:36:27 From Rachel Moore : Sounds like maybe a Platonism vs intuitionism debate ????
18:43:53 From Rachel Moore : Book about a technique called Continuum that has the opposite theory about healing in a way, she believes that trying to experience consciousness of primordial beings and of water results in peak experiences and healing
18:50:13 From Vanessa : smoker bacteria live under greater Gs…
18:50:27 From Vanessa : and 300 C temp
19:05:56 From Vanessa : so how do the calcium channels relate to different brain waves types eg alpha beta delta gamma?
19:10:18 From Elizabeth Maitland to Mark Johnson(Privately) : This has been great – I’m going to have to step away, as I need to get moving on dinner…speak soon and thank John for me!
19:13:25 From Lauri : “Now, the original life as we know it, biologically is an animal that feeds, a monocell, which we know in the amoeba which then elongates itself as we see in the paramecium and this elongated form became symbolised in the snake, the serpent. Now the serpent represents the triple S, sensuous, self satisfaction. It is devoted entirely to a hedonistic view of life. It doesn’t want to know anything painful. The life-force itself, moves towards pleasures and away from pains. We demonstrate this in the case of the single cell like the amoeba by putting food particles in the water near it and we see that it pushes out a filament of protoplasm called a pseudopodium, a false foot, and it engulfs that material that we put into the water; but if we drop some lemon juice, the same foot that advanced to the food, being stung by the bite of the acid, will withdraw. So in the monocell we see a very simple demonstration of what sensuality means, it means moving towards pleasure and away from pain.”
19:16:10 From Vanessa : perhaps higher states are reached by shutting down certain types of brain function. My son was hit by a car and when he came out of coma state he was in a state of being in the moment and could not remember what happened minutes previous….many people said how sage like he was as he enjoyed each moment at a time…perhaps higher states are reached by abstaining certain brain activity.
19:16:47 From Vanessa : I should say he recovered and is normal now!
19:19:03 From Vanessa : dolphins and elephants and chimps humans have spindle cells which allows ability not seen in other animals
19:19:56 From Pat Toms : Thank you John
19:20:12 From Sebastian Fiedler : thanks John!
Mike McCulloch. New Physics from Information Loss (QI)

17:13:03 From Graham : Is there any possibility of improving the sound quality?
17:37:39 From Keith : Sound quality is very good here.
17:38:37 From Graham : Verging on unlistenable here – and I’m on a fast link
17:39:31 From Mark Johnson : I’m afraid there’s not much we can do about it. It’s ok here, but the recording should be ok
17:40:29 From Keith : Mark – was my microphone too loud?
17:41:33 From Douglas Matzke : greetings keith, just wanted to say hi.
17:41:51 From Keith : Hi Doug!
17:42:34 From Keith : Hi Everybody! 🙂
17:45:14 From Vanessa : coool
17:49:00 From Vanessa : exactly….wow!
17:51:54 From Vanessa : thankyou very much!!
17:54:18 From Keith : To unmute do I hold the space bar down or just tap it?
17:54:38 From Nicola : tap the mute button
17:54:52 From Keith : Thanks
17:55:40 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Mike thank you for this fascinating lecture – the best bit for me is NO Big Bang! Sorry to leave but my internet connection is getting more and more unstable have a good evening, Barbara
17:57:22 From Vanessa : tapered spirals…..wonder what affect
17:57:50 From John Hyatt : Thank you so much, Mike. I have another meeting at 6.00, so will have to leave unfortunately. I thoroughly enjoyed the talk and wish you every success with the experimental testing.
17:58:47 From Douglas Matzke : Thermophoresis
17:59:56 From Samuel Lomonaco : Thanks, Mike: Great talk! Very mind provoking.
18:01:14 From Graham : Douglas – do you have a reference for that?
18:03:18 From Douglas Matzke : Fung, Frankie, Mykhaylo Usatyuk, B. J. DeSalvo, and Cheng Chin. “Stable Thermophoretic Trapping of Generic Particles at Low Pressures.” Appl. Phys. Lett. 110 (University of Chicago), January 2017.
18:04:04 From Graham : Thank you Douglas
18:05:03 From Vanessa : Mark I didn’t get the last vid link so please can you check I am on the email list as Vanessa_whill |a| thanks
18:06:52 From Vanessa : yes thanks Mike!
18:06:53 From Keith : Mike – Have you seen the work of Owen Maroney on extracting heat from quantum systems by creating random numbers (adding information)? Also do you know the work of Dave Roscoe at Sheffield?
18:06:59 From Richard Heiberger : Mark I haven’t received any video lists
18:07:04 From Richard Heiberger : rmh |a|
18:07:13 From Pat Toms : wheres Lous pdf file of book?
18:07:35 From Louis H Kauffman : Sent book to ANPA CHAT
18:07:45 From Vanessa : Lou please could you send me the pdf book#
18:07:46 From Pat Toms : Thanks
18:07:46 From Douglas Matzke : great job mike
Andrew Crompton. Constructing a Small Set of Objects in the Unmarked State

17:13:07 From Joseph Saviri : Look forward to meeting you Andrew
17:17:50 From Astrid Johnson : In the Bing Bang Theory Sheldon also used a dice to make all his decisions. It did not end so well.
17:16:05 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Dice can be loaded!
17:28:26 From David McGoveran : As can people!
17:28:50 From Keith : Hello Erk
17:30:05 From M. Erk Durgun : Hello 🙂
17:32:06 From Keith : Transparent rather than invisible?
17:32:40 From Astrid Johnson : Lego just brought out the first braille bricks.
17:33:26 From Pat Toms : Lou did you put Mike McCullochs pdf book on Anpa Chat. I can’t see it there! Where do I find it?
17:34:00 From Keith : Lou, neither can I. Can you email it please?
17:34:05 From Louis H Kauffman : Just so the blank page is transparent to our writing, but also (as Enrico Mazzi remarks) we should consider both sides of a sheet, and I say we should use transparent sheets! Then you can do mathematics on a Mobius strip or a Klein bottle.
17:34:30 From Samuel Lomonaco : These principles must have been uncounsciously used in the design of knot mosaic tiles.
17:36:09 From Louis H Kauffman : I sent the book in email to ANPA Chat.
17:37:31 From Pat Toms : Oops, I get the emails from Anton but never got the book!
17:38:41 From Vanessa : neither did I Pat….not sure why.
17:38:42 From johntorday : Warhol’
17:38:53 From Richard Heiberger : Lou: i am not yet on anpa chat, can you send the book to me : rmh |a|
17:38:55 From johntorday : Warhol’s soup cans
17:39:11 From Marc Pierson : When it comes to belief in modes, I preference the face over the voice and writing.
17:39:17 From Louis H Kauffman : Use and you can get it yourself.
17:40:01 From Keith : Lou – but wouldn’t that be illegal? 🙂
17:40:20 From Louis H Kauffman : in that case do not use it.
17:40:31 From Joseph Saviri : Amazing. Amazon Echo.
17:41:17 From johntorday : Hemlines and the Stock Market?
17:41:49 From Keith : The fashion in bikini tops is to wear them upside down! 🙂
17:42:37 From Douglas Matzke : harmany is lack of objections
17:43:25 From Louis H Kauffman : I will send one copy to Mark Johnson. He can put it on ANPA CHAT.
17:43:42 From Pat Toms : Thanks, much appreciated
17:43:55 From Joseph Saviri : Type of music matters – hip hop, Beatles, Rap?
17:44:05 From Louis H Kauffman : Or you can send me an email (kauffman |a| and I will send it directly.
17:45:50 From Samuel Lomonaco to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Mark: What about the entropy of symbols?
17:46:43 From johntorday : Are we talking about aesthetic architypes?
17:47:51 From Douglas Matzke : the face becomes a gestalt
17:49:07 From johntorday : Agree with you Doug, but do the gestalts derive from Nature? Never a bad patter in Nature….
17:50:23 From Richard Heiberger : the magic number 7, plus or minus two
17:50:43 From johntorday : If aliens evolve the same we do by endogenizing stuff in their environment, and their environment is different from ours, they will not see patterns in he same way innately
17:50:54 From Keith : I’m not sure my brain is very similar to Peter’s.
17:52:21 From Douglas Matzke : mayan’s had base 13 and 20 for their counting
17:52:34 From Vanessa : didn’t playing cards come from the Tarot?
17:53:01 From Keith : Two bases? Must have been confusing!
17:53:55 From Douglas Matzke : and 20*13=260, which is the gestation period of humans
17:55:26 From Vanessa : sumerians used base 6 I think…
17:56:11 From Richard Heiberger : british money is multi-base 12 x 20 x infiinity
17:56:34 From Keith : Hmm. I think we stopped that now.
17:56:48 From johntorday : Perhaps interfaces interface because they are all derivative of Natural patterns
17:56:52 From Douglas Matzke : if we had only 8 fingers, then we would be counting in a binary representation 2**3=8
17:57:05 From Richard Heiberger : babylonians use base 60: hence 60 seconds per minute, 60 minutes per hour, 360 degrees per circle
17:57:33 From John Hyatt : Thanks Andrew. Your talks have a particular flavour which is always very tasty. I have to go now to another meeting. Thanks, again!
17:57:40 From Vanessa : oops yes I meant 60!
17:57:52 From Richard Heiberger : we have 10 fingers, hence it is easy to count to a 1023 on our fingers. there is a standard Chinese was of thing that.
17:58:03 From Dai Griffiths : Some capital letters are different from lower case in shape. Some are not. Would it be ‘better’ if they were all the same, or if they were all different?
17:58:14 From johntorday : The interfaces are innately understood
17:58:47 From Douglas Matzke : how can we have meaning without language?
17:59:53 From Keith : Doug – there is meaning “in the now”.
18:00:33 From Douglas Matzke : Mikey mouse only has 8 fingers
18:00:59 From Keith : Computers were originally invented by toons.
18:01:01 From Joseph : The Huthis in Islam read meaning inevery human feature
18:01:21 From Joseph Saviri : Dressing = taste.
18:01:36 From Vanessa : yes sign language could bcme universal language
18:01:52 From Keith : Hmm. But it’s still language.
18:01:57 From Joseph Saviri : Thanks for sharing about Mickey..
18:02:17 From Keith : How do you have meaning without it?
18:02:29 From Douglas Matzke : 2**10 = 1024, which is still a binary power
18:02:41 From Louis H Kauffman : How can we have meaning without language? How can we have meaning without experience? How can we have experience without language?
18:03:11 From Keith : Experience may be meaning without language.
18:04:12 From David McGoveran : Rather depends on how inclusive your use of the term “language” is…
18:05:02 From Louis H Kauffman : In order for you to have and know you have experience you at least need enough language to acknowledge the experience. Language could be as simple as that experencer/experienced. World opens up for a moment and closes again. One distinction become language.
18:05:45 From Keith : Experience may be meaning without language.
18:09:24 From Douglas Matzke : source of randomness
18:10:23 From Keith : quantum mechanics
18:11:23 From Douglas Matzke : and random and probabilities is not intuitive
18:12:23 From Keith : Andrew Crompton – good talk!
18:12:43 From Rachel Moore : ????
18:13:18 From Joseph Saviri : Thanks Andrew, Mark and colleagues. Dropping off now.
18:13:56 From Samuel Lomonaco : Andrew, thanks for a great talk
18:17:32 From Marc Pierson : Ashby’s mechanical homeostat also used randomness to test next steps.
18:17:47 From Graham : thank you Andrew – very thought provoking
18:15:05 From Marc Pierson : Is randomness a way to explore nothingness?
18:15:10 From Elizabeth Maitland : Fascinating Andrew – raises interesting questions about heuristics and their origins
18:15:59 From Louis H Kauffman : Asking about randomness in relation to quantum theory is certainly a way to explore no thing ness.
David McGoveran. Comments on the History of ANPA West

Chat messages are below.
For interest, the interview with Sir Paul Nurse is here:

And his new book is:

Alex Comfort’s book “Reality and Empathy” is

18:13:05 From Anton Vrba : Thank you David — most informative talk!
19:49 From Louis H Kauffman : Alex Comfort, Reality and Empathy – Physics, Mind and Science in the 21st Century (Published in 1984).
18:28:14 From Rachel Moore : Thanks Lou!
18:38:06 From johntorday : As a minority representative for Biology, which David mentioned was one of the topics for ANPA, how much biology has been presented at ANPA? Just Sayin’…..
18:41:05 From andrew crompton : Very interesting, and thank you, I like the sound of light hearted philosophy.
18:41:19 From andrew crompton : that was me ,andrew
18:44:29 From Pat Toms : Mark, what was the book ‘cell homologue of atom’?
18:50:07 From Rachel Moore : Thanks David, hoping that your home is okay
18:50:40 From Douglas Matzke : for and aside “who created this” see paper “Quantum Physics and Metaphysics: If God used information/computing “
Week 3:
Mike Manthey. Out of the Box: Self-Organizing Awareness
Doug Matzke. The Source Science beneath Deep Reality

17:21:37 From Keith : At Physcomp94 I believe were Pierre, Lou, Dick Shoup, me, Mike and Doug (and Vaughn Pratt who was also at ANPA West)33
17:21:57 From Louis H Kauffman : C’est Vrai!
17:22:23 From Keith : The 33 was a typo 🙂
17:23:09 From Louis H Kauffman : 33 is canonical type. 17 is canonical random number.
17:24:37 From Keith : Where type is a canonical typo, I assume (and Vaughn should be Vaughan)
17:25:17 From Louis H Kauffman : This is your theory of typos.
17:36:54 From Keith : Hello Barbara! Hello Vanessa!
17:37:19 From Vanessa : Hi Keith, hope all is good with you.
17:37:38 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Hello Keith! Nice to ‘see’ you again
17:37:44 From Keith : Except car battery! 🙂
17:37:57 From Keith : And you?
17:38:43 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Things are fine as they are 🙂
17:39:31 From Nicola : Hope your physio battery is ok
17:39:49 From Keith : B – you mean without my picture? 🙂
17:41:50 From Keith : N – all my other batteries are fine 🙂
17:44:58 From Keith : Hmmm – maybe Mike-Doug theory is what we need for a simple proof of the four colour theorem
17:45:59 From Louis H Kauffman : Why do you need a proof of the 4CT? Maybe you don’t believe it. Could be false you know.
17:46:11 From Keith : I said simple proof!
17:46:28 From Louis H Kauffman : Do you know any proof?
17:46:38 From Keith : And I won’t fully believe it until then
17:47:01 From Keith : Hmm. Do I know any proof of anything?
17:47:09 From Louis H Kauffman : Ah. Ok then. So until you see a proof, it might be false.
17:48:17 From Keith : Hmm. I thought the computer proof theory proof rather clinched it.
17:48:31 From Louis H Kauffman : So they say.
17:48:42 From Keith : 🙂
17:50:22 From Nicola : Proof depends on what gives you the AHA!
17:51:21 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. A proof (for an individual) is an argument (or situation) that is completely convincing (to that individual).
17:52:11 From Keith : It is. But proofs are shared. And the simpler they are the more there is a shared belief.
17:52:53 From Nicola : Yes. We have different belief communities
17:53:26 From Keith : That complicates things.
17:53:58 From Nicola : Things are complicated!
17:54:20 From Keith : The shared computer science-mathematical community is more likely to believe the existing 4CT proofs.
17:54:32 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. Proofs are shared. And in order for a proof to be shared it has to BE a proof for each person in the group of persons who share that proof. Of course there are lots of social situations where a proof is not really shared. Often the only people who actually know a proof are the author of the paper and one referee who actually read it. The case of the 4CT is that no one can read that proof, but with engineering assumptions about computer programs, a number of people have gone through all the details including checking and rechecking the programs.
17:55:14 From Nicola : So there is a compliance, an acceptance without the AHA!
17:55:19 From Keith : But most people can be convinced of Pythagoras proofs.
17:55:30 From Nicola : Ah yes!!!
17:56:36 From Louis H Kauffman : No one should accept results just because someone else states them. New students keep arising in active fields and they keep looking and asking questions. This keeps things honest.
17:57:18 From Keith : It does.
17:57:24 From Nicola : Absolutely
17:58:48 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Yes in the antideluvial times when I was a student we were expected to reproduce calculations (proofs) before moving on new things. That of course poses some limitations but it means you don’t take anything on faith
17:59:20 From Nicola : A lot to be said for old school
17:59:37 From Louis H Kauffman : Old style teaching of geometry was enlightening for those who got the hang of it!
17:59:55 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : And what a kick when you got it right!
18:00:07 From Louis H Kauffman : 🙂
18:00:58 From Keith : I have seen very little about the CONSEQUENCES of the Four Colour Theorem (like for Electrical Engineering or particle scattering). Certainly people are more likely to believe things that have consequences.
18:01:35 From Nicola : Yes. That would be interesting,…
18:02:09 From Louis H Kauffman : Aha. We can talk about these contexts. There is a HUGE amount in the context. Start with the paper “Applications of Negative Dimensional Tensors” by Roger Penrose.
18:05:37 From Keith : I see something about Intuitionistic logic but not about 4CT. Did he say something about this?
18:06:04 From Louis H Kauffman : Nothing about intuitionist logic in the Penrose paper.
18:06:08 From johntorday : I don’t know if this is relevant to ‘context’, but if everything is running off the Consciousness of the Cosmos, there is a universal context, like synesthesia
18:07:13 From Joseph : Let’s go beyond geometry . .and intuitionist logic .
18:07:16 From Keith : I hear you! 🙂
18:08:42 From Joseph : Is there a beginning of the universe?
18:09:16 From Barbara Jikai Gabrys : Sorry folks have another call Doug thank you for the lecture
18:09:47 From johntorday : There is a beginning to the Explicate universe. It began with the first cell
18:10:05 From Nicola : God/ the ineffable, the Divine
18:10:53 From Keith : Or the first distinction?
18:11:08 From johntorday : To be clear, before there was life there was only Bohm’s Implicate Order
18:11:23 From peter rowlands : I am reminded of Peter Cook asking Jeffrey Archer, ‘Is there any beginning to your talents?’
18:11:40 From Louis H Kauffman : Spencer-Brown say “Abandon truth to indication, indication to distinction and distinction to void.”
18:12:15 From Nicola : ah the hidden variables …
18:12:35 From Keith : Jeffrey Archer? Really? 🙂
18:12:46 From Louis H Kauffman : The Tao.
18:13:18 From Joseph : NOW we’re talking!
18:13:25 From Keith : My brother once went to a garden party at Jeffrey Archer’s house. He was at the gate collecting the entrance fees. 🙂
18:18:11 From Keith : (Archer, not my brother. 🙂 )
18:18:56 From Keith : Thanks, Doug.
18:19:55 From Nicola : Nice to see you, Peter. Clearly all went well. Go gently x
18:21:12 From Joseph : Thanks, Doug. Goodbye All for today.
18:23:25 From peter rowlands : They were ahead of schedule, so I was able to make the second half. It went fine, so I’m OK.
18:23:50 From peter rowlands : Concerning Jeffrey Archer, he certainly has a talent for making money.
18:24:58 From Vanessa : all life is coded by DNA….
18:25:27 From Louis H Kauffman : You can start anywhere with any major distinction and unfold all the rest.
18:26:21 From Vanessa : imo DNA is life…
18:26:43 From Vanessa : and all life forms are a part of that DNA life form
18:28:22 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. You can see that the big distinction that you have chosen is inevitable. It can be awareness itself,, or DNA, or information. The whole is circular in the forms of its explanations. That does not preclude the fact that each of these fundamental distinctions is in the form the “first” distinction.
18:30:02 From johntorday : With all due respect, IMHO DNA is derivative of lipids forming micelles in water spontaneously……DNA does not control, it is controlled by the cell
18:33:03 From Enrico Mazzi : What is the support for information?
18:33:15 From johntorday : BTW, Sir Paul Nurse has a new book coming out soon in which he weighs in on the primacy of the cell….which is coming out of epigenetic inheritance
18:34:09 From Louis H Kauffman : If you insist on the primacy of “something” then you have to ask “of what is it made”. Eventually, the answer has to be no-thing.
18:35:37 From Nicola : No-thing – being beyond
18:35:44 From johnwilliamson : Everything is nothing, nothing is everything
18:36:02 From Vanessa : I don’t think DNA is primacy but inevitable to arise and bcomes life
18:36:17 From Louis H Kauffman : No-thing means not a thing. Beyond assumes it is something somewhere. Could be, but then you have not reached the end.
18:36:49 From Vanessa : on pluto amino acids drop out of the atmosphere due to content of that atmoshphere and UV light…so cool
18:37:13 From Enrico Mazzi : the answer can also be: beyond description
18:37:42 From Nicola : yes
18:37:58 From johntorday : I think that the divide between nothing and something is the ‘recoil’ of the Big Bang as in ‘every action has an equal and opposite reaction…..that is homeostasis, without which there would be no matter in the Cosmos. It is the equals sign in all balanced equations
18:38:20 From Louis H Kauffman : yes. we can ask questions whose answers go beyond any present language that we have, and possibly beyond any language we can have.
18:39:20 From Nicola : probably beyond any language that we can have
18:39:27 From johntorday : Regarding DNA, it is another example of how evolution begins with Jacob’s ‘tinkering’ ad hoc, but then eventually becomes DNA/RNA/Protein, the Dogma of Biology
18:40:13 From Enrico Mazzi : silence is the support for language?
18:40:23 From Nicola : yes
18:40:32 From Louis H Kauffman : Best not to say anything at that point.
18:40:37 From johntorday : Language is constrained by the First Principles of Physiology as cell-cell communication
18:41:11 From Enrico Mazzi : ahahahah…nono, but we can recognize that silence can be a shared experience
18:41:31 From Enrico Mazzi : in this way it can have some common value
18:41:40 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. We can share silence. And we share that in all time.
18:41:53 From johntorday : Silence is the ‘ineffable’, or a negative ‘F bomb’
18:42:35 From Vanessa : the virus imo was selected for by gain of function research and is not a natural one…
18:42:42 From Nicola : What’s an F bomb?
18:43:08 From Enrico Mazzi : is there another experience we can share without the need to describe it?
18:43:27 From Vanessa : or is natural if you want to include human intervebtion
18:43:39 From Enrico Mazzi : like the experience of light? can we call it an experience?
18:44:48 From johntorday : Daniel Fels has shown the direct effect of photons on cell division, for example
18:46:01 From Enrico Mazzi : I wonder if there is a non reductive way to describe the experience of light to a blind person
18:46:46 From Nicola : I don’t think so
18:47:20 From Enrico Mazzi : so, in that way, a blind person is inferior
18:47:26 From Enrico Mazzi : by definition
18:47:40 From Enrico Mazzi : I hope it is not the case
18:47:44 From johntorday : When people have handicaps, there are compensatory mechanisms….if that took the form of super hearing, for example, it could mimic light, perhaps
18:48:26 From Vanessa : UV light affects DNA itself and triggers many changes eg allows virus to start replicating..
18:48:29 From Louis H Kauffman : Recall the story of Helen Keller. She was reconnected to the world through language of touch.
18:48:36 From Nicola : No. we are heterogeneous becomings. Hearing is not seeing but blind people do experience more acutely in other senses
18:48:46 From johntorday : Bats ‘see’ using echo-location, for example, so that would be an equivalent of ‘seeing’ using sound, right?
18:49:54 From Nicola : Equivalence is equal valuing – equality has a quantitative nature. The senses are heterogeneous
18:50:11 From Enrico Mazzi : exactly, the support for those mechanisms maybe has something in common with light
18:51:01 From Enrico Mazzi : it may be projective in nature
18:51:34 From johntorday : Enrico, I think your question falls under the heading of how organisms adapt to niches….the senses allow for such adaptations on an ad hoc basis, if you get my drift
18:52:20 From Nicola : Thank you, Richard, for the Asimov link x x x
18:53:40 From Enrico Mazzi : yes john, the support for adaptation is very powerful indeed
18:54:39 From johntorday : I don’t know if this is helpful, but I am convinced that the cell membrane of unicellular life has given rise to all physiology, seeing, hearing, smelling
18:56:30 From Vanessa : Max do you want to add your email address?
Joseph Brenner. Philosophy in Reality

17:38:00 From johntorday : Is LIR ‘testable/refutable’ ?
17:40:30 From johntorday : If LIR cannot connect with Quantum Mechanics, is it valid?
17:40:49 From Mark Johnson : What does valid mean?
17:41:14 From johntorday : Valid= relevant
17:44:54 From johntorday : If philosophy engenders Bohm’s Implicate Order as the purest form of Reality, there must be a way to bridge it with the Explicate Order. I don’t see how Joe’s philosophy offers such an option
17:45:28 From David McGoveran : Diederick Aertz (sp?) used to be part of ANPA
17:46:14 From FredricSYoung : Hi David spelled Aerts
17:49:12 From David McGoveran : Thx! Senior moment!
17:50:44 From FredricSYoung : I never met him. Pierre used to talk about him and I’ve read some of his papers.
17:51:59 From johntorday : Between phenotype and genotype is development. We now know that most of the evolutionary changes in phenotype/genotype are due to epigenetic inheritance, which is due to interaction of the organism with its environment, i.e. the ‘logic of reality’ is interactive and experimentally demonstrabel
17:52:22 From Mark Johnson : and dialectical
17:52:43 From johntorday : yes, but not material, energetic, I think
17:53:08 From Mark Johnson : Joseph said something very similar to this
17:54:13 From johntorday : But based on opinion, not science. Gotta ‘test’ hypotheses or its just a lot of speculations, correlations and associations, not Causation
17:55:25 From Nicola : What about teleology?
17:55:30 From johntorday : The consensus is that Quantum Mechanics is what Reality is constituted by, so once we align biology with it, we no longer need to speculate as to what the Truth is
17:56:27 From johntorday : If we can move from the Big Bang vectorially to physics and physiology and evolution, that is not teleology because it has a beginning, a middle and an end IMHO
17:58:14 From johntorday : Einstein provided the ‘bookends’ of existence as energy and mass….once we fill in the middle piece with evolution, it obviates the need for philosophy
17:59:25 From Colin Rourke : There is a lot of evidence against the big bang. so probably a good idea not to depend on it!
18:00:16 From johntorday : OK, no Big Bang, but the Cosmos is expanding, correct, which infers an origin
18:03:19 From Colin Rourke : It’s contracting as well. So no origin. The basic philosophical imperative of the full Copernican principle says all points and times are equivalent!
18:03:31 From johntorday : Certainly you would agree that we have a ‘beginning, middle and end’, and we are adapting to the physical world in some way or another. I have argued that the unicellular is mimicking the Singularity, the cytoskeleton determining the state of the cell as homeostatic, mitotic or meiotic, all in turn determined by the Target of Rapamycin gene
18:04:22 From johntorday : The only biologic ‘contraction’ I know of in humans is the degradation of the Y chromosome!
18:04:51 From Louis H Kauffman : In using toopological objects for phialsophical discussion it may help to restrict to such objects that are fully in three dimensional space so that there is no debate about their “reality” in the usual sense. Thus the Borommean rings ARE an example of a three fold relation and the Mobius band is an example of a surface with locally two sides but globally one side. These are examples that can be directly apprehended and so are useful amplifiers for philosophical poiints.
18:14:22 From johntorday : We humans exist due to negative entropy. Without that there would be no logic, physics, chemistry, biology
18:16:38 From Mark Johnson : Is it our logic that determines this though… we’re in the ouroboros…
18:17:38 From johntorday : With all due respect Mark, it’s the logic of the Cosmos that ultimately determines this IMHO
18:18:51 From FredricSYoung : negentropy is information which was called the most fundamental level in the talk yesterday
18:18:58 From Wolfgang Baer : negative entropy is associated with growth I believe that the universe is also trying to grow at our expanse so there is a conflict which is never admitted
18:20:35 From johntorday : Perhaps Ouroboros symbolizes that lipid micelle that launched life in the Cosmos?
18:21:34 From johntorday : The only aspect of negentropy that occurs against us is cancer, which is an alternative to adaptation
18:21:36 From Mark Johnson : yes it could do
18:22:44 From Louis H Kauffman : Is he referring to the fact that ~~A is not A in intuitionistic logic, but ~~~A = ~A in that logic?
18:23:33 From johntorday : Wolfgang, I think the ‘conflict’ is between entropy and negative entropy, which is our ambiguous origin, but that’s the ‘animus’ that drives us to remain ahead of the environmental change that is inevitable
18:25:17 From Wolfgang Baer : cancer yes but think of friction – we loose energy or I should say we loose action because we do not pay attention – then the universe picks it up , but to grow we need to gain action in our interactions – its a struggle between equals.
18:28:24 From Bob Bishop : Excel;lent session – thanks Joe, Mike Mark for setting up the session – I have another commitment right now. Bye!, BB.
18:29:19 From Wolfgang Baer : Yes neg entropy is the opposite flow of action we interact with the universe if we gain action we grow if we loose action we shrink our life AND EVOLUTION IS THEN A STORY OF the struggle of growing
18:37:50 From Louis H Kauffman : The way to understand the bridging of implicate and explicate is look at the many examples of this that we know in all areas of articulation.
18:39:06 From Vanessa : viruses are type of drivers of evolution…
18:43:07 From Louis H Kauffman : We are not looking at it backward. The problem is not that there is some one correct point of view. Rather, it is that we do not usually take a given point of view far enough for it to come round full circle and embrace the other point of view. Each singular view embraces all the other.s
18:43:38 From johntorday : Maslow Peak Moments, Near Death Experiences, Runner’s High are all bridges between the Implicate and Explicate
18:44:20 From Louis H Kauffman : So is the understanding that the Pythagorean Theorem depends on the underpinning of Euclidean Geometry.
18:44:43 From Louis H Kauffman : Small moments are just as important as so called great moments.
18:45:45 From Nicola : Agreed
18:46:52 From Nicola : In fact all experienced moments are collapses of the wave function – i.e. the bridging
18:47:20 From Louis H Kauffman : If you believe in the “collapse of the wave function” 🙂
18:47:53 From Nicola : Indeed
18:48:33 From Nicola : It may be a nice metaphor
18:49:34 From johntorday : With all due respect to Christine, I think it’s experimentation, driven by creativity
18:51:29 From Louis H Kauffman : Collapse of the wave function as a metaphor is the movement from Possibility to Actuality.
18:51:59 From Nicola : yes
18:53:04 From Vanessa : agree Wolfgang
18:53:28 From FredricSYoung : certainly there is decoherence
18:55:09 From Vanessa : eg Placebo affect
18:55:52 From Louis H Kauffman : So it is pointed out that eliminating the observer is a mistake. Indeed. And this is one of the steps in getting back round into the fundamental circularity associated with taking any given point of view. In order to have a point of view, the universe must divide (itself) into that which observes and that which observes. In that condition it will of necessity always elude itself. Only by returning to no-distinction and returning to other articulations can a view of the whole (elephant) be articulated.
18:56:47 From Nicola : Many thanks, Joseph
18:57:00 From Nicola : And yes, Lou
18:57:12 From johntorday : I think the observer and the observed are one and the same
18:57:32 From Louis H Kauffman : Tat Tvam Asi
18:57:56 From johntorday : Please decode
18:58:08 From Louis H Kauffman : Thou Art That
18:58:09 From Nicola : I’m a vishistadvaitist myself x
John Williamson. Light is Heavy

17:11:37 From Doug Matzke : i’m not seeing anything
17:11:49 From Samuel Lomonaco : ditto
17:11:59 From Roger Anderton : cant see slides
17:11:59 From Anton Vrba : I have a blank screen too
17:12:09 From David McGoveran : ditto
17:12:23 From Fredric Young : yes screen is blank
17:14:19 From Keith Bowden : I can see two Fred Youngs. 🙂
17:14:43 From John Torday : Do both light as wave and photon have weight?
17:15:14 From Keith Bowden : Mass?
17:15:52 From Doug Matzke : bits also have an effective energy and thus an effective mass
17:16:36 From John Hyatt : should we be on slide 2 now?
17:16:41 From wolfgang baer : Have to go How do I play this back later ?
17:16:58 From Doug Matzke : not seeing slides changing
17:17:32 From Fredric Young : yes only one of my computers has a microphone. I’ve cut it down to one now
17:17:33 From Keith Bowden : Doug – do moving bits have momentum?
17:18:24 From Keith Bowden : Fred – none of my (many) computers have microphones. 🙂
17:18:29 From Doug Matzke : they show up on the surface area of a black hole
17:19:18 From Doug Matzke : this talk may be able to give some insights about how that might be done
17:19:36 From Richard Heiberger : is the weight of the internet’s data relevant to this talk?
17:20:35 From Doug Matzke : bit is related to entropy/order. so how to weigh that?
17:20:39 From Keith Bowden : THe mass of the universe will be entirely data by the end of the century?!
17:20:52 From Fredric Young : Hi Keith for some reason I can’t get audio on my windows machine with the big screen
17:20:53 From Grenville Croll : I’ve always been interested in the mass information equivalence
17:22:16 From Keith Bowden : Grenville – have you ever thought about attacking the four colour problem using bientropy?
17:23:25 From Louis H Kauffman : Careful. It may attack back. (see small poem by Piet Hein).
17:23:43 From Keith Bowden : 🙂
17:26:55 From Keith Bowden : Coo.
17:27:30 From Grenville Croll : take a look at alex misra’s paper on reckon it’s an easy leap between the smallest binary difference and the smallest energy quantum
17:31:08 From Grenville Croll to Mark Johnson(Privately) : can’t see slides
17:36:11 From Graham Ellsbury : That surely assumes the centre of mass of the box does not change
17:42:27 From Joseph Brenner : For reference, I hope we will get to self-duality
17:44:12 From Doug Matzke : here is the link to prdf of doran’s book.
17:44:23 From Doug Matzke : pdf*
17:45:15 From Louis H Kauffman : thank you!!
17:54:27 From Keith Bowden : Chris Doran used to be rather dismissive of Geometric Algebra (in favour of Clifford Algebras). I wasn’t aware of this title.
17:58:16 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Yes. Brill x
18:10:03 From Keith Bowden : `Hello Nick!
18:12:34 From Keith Bowden : I want to hear Peter’s take on this.
18:13:30 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Hi Keith, great that you’re here
18:15:35 From Keith Bowden : Hello Nicola. Thanks, but my greeting was to Nick who appeared briefly and then disappeared. 🙂
18:15:50 From Peter Rowlands : We intended to do that in specific meetings this summer but that didn’t happen. Still need face to face meeting.
18:16:06 From Joseph Brenner : How about ‘proof’ by philosophy?
18:16:32 From Keith Bowden : Peter – I would be interested in that.
18:16:41 From Nick Rossiter : Yes very good to see you again Keith!
18:16:50 From Keith Bowden : 🙂
18:17:12 From Peter Rowlands : If it happens we’ll let you know.
18:17:36 From Keith Bowden : John – great talk.
18:18:37 From Keith Bowden : Peter, thanks.
18:22:19 From Vanessa Hill : wow…..
18:22:22 From Chandra Roychoudhuri : John: Under what conditions, in your model, photons interact with photons?
18:22:48 From Keith Bowden : I always imagined it was pronounced Quizzical!!! 🙂
18:35:44 From Graham Ellsbury : Very interesting talk John. Apologies to everyone but have to go now and unfortunately unable to make Mark’s talk tomorrow. See you all on Monday.
18:42:38 From Doug Matzke : how to spell that site?
18:43:09 From Doug Matzke : quasical?
18:43:23 From Nicola Graves-Gregory :
18:43:52 From Doug Matzke : thanks
18:45:31 From John Torday : To Joseph’s point about the interface between Quantum Mechanics and the ‘macro’, you have to see our history as an organism from its unicellular origin based on cell-cell communications as the basis for physiology
18:47:19 From John Williamson : hilgevoord
18:47:55 From John Torday : The demonstration that a retinal cell can detect one photon speaks to simultaneity
18:47:58 From Doug Matzke : physcomp link
18:50:54 From Louis H Kauffman : A blast from the past.
18:51:34 From Doug Matzke : also remember physcomp81 and physcomp 96
18:51:49 From Doug Matzke : published separately
18:51:51 From Keith Bowden : Is it true that Physcomp94 was the original announcement of Shor’s Algorithm?
18:51:52 From Louis H Kauffman : do you have the papers for those?
18:52:10 From Doug Matzke : no, he presented, but was annouynced before
18:52:42 From Samuel Lomonaco : Shor’s algorithm was first published in FOCS
18:52:54 From Keith Bowden : Was it the first presentation?
18:53:05 From Samuel Lomonaco : I think so
18:53:46 From Keith Bowden : I remember being stunned by it.
18:54:03 From Doug Matzke : please don’t post those physcomp paper links, since they are IEEE-CS copyrighted, but I got them when they opened the site one time
18:54:17 From Keith Bowden : Sam – are you interested in the work of Gabriel Kron?
18:54:40 From Doug Matzke : this are privately shared links
18:55:07 From Samuel Lomonaco : I have not taken a look at Gabriel Kron. I will take a look
18:56:56 From Keith Bowden : S – I would be interested to talk with you about it.
18:57:11 From John Williamson : Tate anomaly
18:57:28 From Joseph Brenner : Is a di-electron self-dual?
18:57:45 From Samuel Lomonaco : Keitk: My email addresx is TwoKnot |a|
18:58:10 From Keith Bowden : 🙂 Thanks
19:00:04 From Pat Toms : Thanks John
19:00:28 From Samuel Lomonaco : John, thanks for a great talk!
19:00:32 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thank you, John. Goodness x
19:00:53 From Keith Bowden : Bye
Mark Johnson. Physiological Entropy and Anticipatory Systems

17:11:17 From John Torday : Lamps look like Chihoully sculptures
17:17:00 From David McGoveran : What is coming together indeed! A question we were asking at ANPA least by 1985 & never stopped while I was attending. Big smile!
17:20:20 From John Torday : We are 90% water, which is made stable by lipids, which cause negentropy, from our origins forward
17:23:52 From John Torday : Spider web is Dave Clark’s ‘externalized consciousness’
17:23:54 From Peter Rowlands : Spider A to Spider B: I’ve heard there’s a world wide web out there
17:26:42 From Joseph Brenner : Don’t forget Arachné, spinning ‘fate’ ..
17:29:28 From John Torday : What’s the password to get onto the WWW?
17:29:48 From John Torday : Is ‘surprizingness’ = dyshomeostgasis?
17:36:00 From Michael Horner : Theories of Distinction Niklas Luhmann
17:36:08 From Michael Horner : MGH
17:36:43 From Louis H Kauffman : Mandelbrot had been writing about fractals long before and his book came out in late 1970’s. Mandelbrot coined the term and directed everyone’s attention to the ubiquitous nature of these mathematical patterns that had been around since way back around turn of 20th century.
17:37:09 From Fredric Young : Wholeness and the Implicate Order anticipated much about the complexity theory that was to come later.
17:38:36 From John Torday : It’s how the music affect our physiology ~ resonant frequencies…
17:38:48 From Joseph Brenner : Roald Hoffmann’s book “The Same and Not the Same”
17:39:18 From Fredric Young : I’ve heard it said that by coining the clever term fractals Mandelbrot managed to claim much of 20th century mathematics for himself.
17:39:25 From John Torday : Same not same as broken symmetries?
17:40:16 From John Torday : Zygote to cell to Zygote to cell
17:40:58 From John Torday : The cell as an attractor = zero in Peter’s Rewrite System
17:42:27 From John Torday : The music only has meaning in contrast to ‘nothing’, like a Henry Moore sculpture
17:43:20 From John Torday : Negative Space ~ Negentropy ~ Nilpotent
17:43:22 From Michael Horner : Lewis Fry Richardson recoded the fractal idea expanded by Mandelbrot
17:44:23 From Michael Horner : me is MGH Mike Horner mhorner |a|
17:45:59 From John Torday : Is the pattern non-locality?
17:46:36 From Fredric Young : Douglas Hofstadter wrote about the creativity of doodling.
17:47:16 From John Torday : There is an implicit aesthetic in the pattern that references Mark’s physiology
17:47:34 From Richard Heiberger : Mark, can you rotate the bottom section (the rectangles) 90 degrees so they move in the same direction as the line graph in the second part of your live demo?
17:48:39 From Louis H Kauffman : For Hofstadter, meaning arises in the creation of the strange Goedelian loops that code and re-encode the syntax of apparently uninterpreted formal systems to find that meaning arises from syntax.
17:49:09 From John Torday : ‘pencil’ to fingers to hearth to Consciousness
17:50:57 From John Torday : Shared Environment due to shared niche as internalized environment, or insides = outsides
17:51:51 From John Torday : Implicate-Explicate are bridged through experimentation
17:58:35 From Barbara Gabrys : I hope you’ve heard the silence I contributed 🙂
17:59:56 From Divyamaan Sahoo : 🙂
18:00:05 From John Torday : John Cage’s Opus ? first performed at Symphony Hall, Boston, was just silence
18:05:06 From Vanessa Hill : chladni patterns…we see the still points where the sand is not moving…
18:05:31 From Richard Heiberger : this sound exercise reminds me of high school assignment. the teacher gave us a poem to analyze, and the next day were all read them in class. lots of very interesting interpretations. then he told us the poem was a random collection of yesterday’s newspaper headlines.
18:06:58 From Divyamaan Sahoo : with regards to theater and silence, mark, i would strongly recommend shogo ohta’s work!
18:09:32 From Astrid Johnson to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Corvina had her hand up.
18:10:21 From Vanessa Hill : Mark, have you looked into Indian music eg sitar and surbahar…they use the silent note issue extensively…plus they use 64 shruties and pentameric scales…scales which have different notes on the arising and return downwards..
18:12:36 From Barbara Gabrys : Mark look on the web for Adrian Freedman’s shakuhachi (Zen flute) music. He calls it ‘music n the edge of silence’. I refer to zazen (meditation) as ‘silence on the edge of music’
18:12:58 From Vanessa Hill : also indian music uses non fixed notes…
18:17:00 From Dai Griffiths : Your statement that the anticipatory system creates the past and the future is something that many mystics would sign up for. How literally do you think that we should take that statement, and what would physics say about that?
18:18:33 From Doug Matzke : Jeff Hawkins (founder of palm pilot) also founded Numenta that is using sparse Distributed Memoriy mathematics to due AI and anticipation. Used for intrusion detection in a system called “grok”
18:19:18 From Vanessa Hill : fractal analysis of DNA from different species shows a key signature for each. the nearer the organisms are in evolution the more they have similar key signatures. this is how I see cloning and hy we see changes in the DNA after cloning. its like putting a piece of DNA with a jazz signature say into an organism that plays Beethoven. After a time the organism adapts the DNA back to the key signature if the organism. we see this happen with ambient temp bacterial DNA in high temp bacteria.
18:20:29 From Doug Matzke : Jeff says due to the mathematics of gives properties that are required to give systems “intelligence”, see his book “on intelligence”
18:20:46 From Joseph Brenner : Minati has a systems view of thebetween
18:21:25 From John Torday : Art brings us together by abstracting the concrete, teaching us to ‘see’
18:26:28 From Doug Matzke : Manthey also says levels for 4 and mod 5 starts next level
18:27:17 From John Torday : Physiology starts and ends with the cell as the fractal
18:31:24 From John Torday : I think Wolfgang is describing dyshomeostasis in response to ‘signal/noise’
18:31:25 From Rachel Moore : Wow that is very cool….and very creepy
18:32:41 From Doug Matzke : Chris Doran developed software using GALG quanternions to efficiently do ray tracing and was sold to ARM to using in next generation virtual reality systems. These are all English based development and companies
18:34:02 From Doug Matzke : you can build qubits from 2 bits. That was what my dissertation was all about.
18:39:56 From Divyamaan Sahoo : peter (marcer) has his hand up
18:44:29 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Mark, please, send me the Alfred Schutz paper also
18:44:54 From John Torday : Lou, can negentropy substitute for the ‘human factor’?
18:45:36 From Doug Matzke : there is no meaning anywhere except in the human mind
18:46:01 From Barbara Gabrys : How do you know it?
18:46:03 From Doug Matzke : data has no meaning by itself.
18:46:30 From Barbara Gabrys : That’s a different statement, I can agree with it
18:46:52 From wolfgang baer : so do you think the rest of the universe is dead or does it have some form of self awareness?
18:46:58 From John Torday : Doug, I respectfully disagree. The human mind is an expression of the Consciousness of the Cosmos as the Laws of Nature
18:47:04 From Doug Matzke : my work on law of attraction, shows there is no physics for meaning only mathematics of correlithms
18:47:41 From Doug Matzke : same approach as Jeff Hawkins
18:48:15 From John Torday : If mathematics is the purest ‘language’ and it exists in the Implicate, it provides the ‘bridge’ from the Explicate
18:48:30 From wolfgang baer : have to go thank you Mark
18:49:24 From Doug Matzke : hypersimensional mathematics is fundamental and holograms and fractals are a distraction about the law of attraction mechnaism
18:49:29 From Barbara Gabrys : Ah we now have different interpretations! That for me doesn’t imply ‘no consciousness’
18:50:10 From Doug Matzke : Just like spencer brown, awareness is primary and consciousness is a distraction
18:50:51 From Barbara Gabrys : Sb banging on the doors and not my cat – have a lovely week-end everybody, mark thank you so much!
18:51:58 From Doug Matzke : also emotions are a kind of meaning, independent of the physiology and neurochemistry.
18:56:41 From Doug Matzke : I’m heading out, so good talk Mark. See you next week.
18:58:22 From Rachel Moore : We can see the ether on your screen now 😀
18:58:37 From John Torday : Emotions=hormones=wave collapse
18:58:44 From Louis H Kauffman : The tree falling in the forest provides the opportunity for a dstinction/observation. That observation reflects the condtion of the tree and the structure of the observer.
18:59:55 From Pat Toms : Thanks Mark
Week 4:
Roger Anderton Ambiguous Aether

17:36:38 From Louis H Kauffman : From the point of view of mathematical models, the aether became the underlying 3 manifold or 4 manifold with the assumption of differential geometric properties (in GR) and further properties in various formulations of QM. The question remains – what is the ‘right’ structure for the background space or spacetime. The older aether theory assumed that the background space was an elastic fluid of some undetermined sort. This had to be replaced, but the end replacement is actually not in sight.
17:37:48 From Joseph Brenner : Unless there is no background space-time . . .
17:38:08 From Keith Bowden : Or it’s entirely an abstraction.
17:45:15 From Louis H Kauffman : I am referring to modeling, not to existence. Of course one hopes that SOME aspect of models should be related to existence, but e.g. it is absurd to think that the infinity of information in each real number is actually reflected by an existent point in space.
17:46:22 From Joseph Brenner : Clear
17:58:27 From Louis H Kauffman : I like the spelling: the luminiferous aether.
18:01:29 From Rachel Moore : Very strange how she didn’t graduate after getting through most or all of the work in school
18:02:02 From Divyamaan Sahoo : where can we read more about her?
18:02:28 From Rachel Moore : Yes, I would like the link to the full talk that you played part of
18:02:40 From Anton Vrba : GPS is earth centric
18:14:58 From Louis H Kauffman : Frank Wilzcek, “The Lightness of Being”, Basic Books (2008).
18:15:28 From John Williamson : Ludwig Kostro
18:16:17 From Divyamaan Sahoo : thank you lou and john for the references
18:33:33 From john torday : As a Biologist, my understanding is that Maxwell did away with the Aether Theory, leaving a ‘vacuum’ that Einstein filled with Special Relativity
18:37:13 From john torday : The fact that Einstein’s paper on Special Relativity had no References inferred that he was doing something new, i.e. a paradigm shift
18:40:09 From wolfgang baer : Can anyone tell me the URL for this and the other recorded presentations ?
18:43:37 From john torday : Michaelson and Morley?
18:43:45 From Michael Horner : does the Zoom host have the right to mute anyone who talks too much
18:49:58 From Rachel Moore : Wolfgang — here is the YouTube channel but if you are able to log in to the you get the notes as well
18:55:45 From Pat Toms : What is modelling?
18:56:24 From wolfgang baer : Rachel thank you
18:57:50 From Louis H Kauffman : By modeling, I mean making mathematics that can be correlated with experiment. The matheamatics does not have to be in 1-1 correspondence with all observations, but there has to be some way to make the correlation. Given that we see models that way, there is no reason to assume that the models or their parts exist in the “reality” being modeled.
18:59:01 From Pat Toms : Why then model?
19:00:42 From Louis H Kauffman : Do you mean, why do we make models? To understand how things work as best we can. For example it is a model that the water in my glass is a teeming mass of molecules. We can use this model to understand many things about heat, freezing cooling etc.
19:01:15 From Rachel Moore : YAY SOUNDS FUN
19:01:23 From Divyamaan Sahoo : !!!!!!!!!!!!!
19:01:42 From Pat Toms : Thanks Roger
1st Sep.
John Hyatt. Vibrating Information

17:13:31 From Divyamaan Sahoo : perhaps the demon is multiguity!
17:13:36 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thanks, Sahoo, and Vanessa
17:14:05 From john torday : Multiguity?
17:14:36 From Divyamaan Sahoo : was referring to the heated Q+A yesterday nevermind
17:22:35 From Fredric Young : Vanessa there was a paper from an Indian group on covid that was retracted. are you talking about another paper?
17:22:58 From Vanessa Hill : yes but I have a copy of it
17:23:18 From Vanessa Hill : it was retracted for political reasons
17:23:31 From Vanessa Hill : i thought it was an excellent analysis
17:24:00 From Fredric Young : thank you. I’ll check it out
17:24:32 From Vanessa Hill : ill send it to you if you would like as i don’t think its easy to get hold of now
17:24:56 From Fredric Young : okay that would be great
17:26:33 From Vanessa Hill : good for analysysof rosslyn chapels cubes…
17:28:54 From john torday : In my lecture on the origin of life as lipids orienting perpendicular to the surface of water, negative poles pointed upward, acting as antennae for electromagnetic forces (gravitational, photonics), giving rise to micelles as protocells
17:30:19 From Richard Heiberger : the sand vibrating go the blue background looks like clouds in the sky as they move and reform
17:30:20 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Hi John, have you looked into slime mould?
17:30:46 From Divyamaan Sahoo : physarum polycephalum! slime mold is great
17:30:53 From Vanessa Hill : ive been out hunting slime moulds for expts…hehe
17:31:25 From john torday : Yes, they are very interesting because whether they are free living amoebae or colonial is determined by the amount of nutrient in the environment……same holds true for humans, as in the case of the Dutch Hunger Winter of 1944
17:33:07 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Could we create a separate zoom about this? I’d like to learn m ore.
17:33:13 From john torday : The question that arises is which is the origin of the Slime Mole, free swimming or colonial…..I submit it must have begun in a nutrient-rich condition, i.e. amoeboid
17:34:30 From Vanessa Hill : Nicky we had a session years ago at Sylvias doing some of this with an old fashioned horn…
17:35:12 From john torday : The vertical orientation of lipids may have been the basis for bipedalism, giving rise to human toolmaking and language formation, and ultimately consciousness
17:36:50 From Mark Johnson : What’s a concept?
17:37:23 From Pat Toms : Sort of model?
17:37:41 From john torday : Idea made material
17:38:07 From Pat Toms : Cant have an idea without concept?
17:38:15 From Mark Johnson : Maybe object and idea is the same – a stability of perception
17:39:10 From john torday : I’ve had many ideas w/o concepts, all due respect
17:39:46 From Mark Johnson : Can you give an example?
17:40:23 From Doug Matzke : just like a thought without language
17:40:24 From john torday : Life as energy, not material
17:40:31 From Pat Toms : Can number be a concept?
17:40:59 From john torday : Language as a derivative of cell-cell communication for evolution of physiology
17:41:23 From Mark Johnson : Are “Life”, “Energy” and “Material” concepts?
17:41:28 From Pat Toms : What sort of communication? Psychic?
17:41:34 From john torday : Zygote as the primary state of being….
17:41:54 From john torday : Life as a vector of the expanding Cosmos
17:41:57 From Doug Matzke : a concept is a meaning
17:42:13 From john torday : The cell as the homologue of the Singularity
17:43:22 From john torday : The vagal nerve as the anatomic homologue of bipedalism
17:45:40 From Louis H Kauffman : Number is a generic example of concept. Numbers refer to actualities but the numbers “themselves” are nowhere in the world of objects. Of course, we make conceptual objects from them. Bertrand Russell suggested that a number should be defined as the collection of all collections that are in 1-1 correspondence with some given collection. Thus the number 3 “is” the collection of all triples. This points out how awkward it is to make an object out of a concept. Frege had the notion that for every concept there is the set of all x that satisfy the concept. Russell pointed out the corresponding paradoxical nature of the set that would correspond to the concept “does not belong to itself”.
17:46:15 From john torday : I think life, energy and material are concepts, yes
17:49:15 From john torday : The common denominator for Wordsworth and the cloud is energy
17:50:04 From Mark Johnson : .. or concepts 😉
17:51:14 From john torday : But do Wordsworth and the cloud become concepts in our minds by reducing them to energy?
17:52:07 From Vanessa Hill : just a clarification re the meeting we had, the picture of us you showed, was a conference I arranged called Resonance and was to bring scientists and artists and geometers together…held at Fintry Trust.
17:52:12 From Louis H Kauffman : You raise the question: How do concepts arise, and of what should one imagine a concept is composed?
17:52:39 From Mark Johnson : ah.. it may go back to Bateson’s criteria of mental process
17:53:11 From john torday : What are the criteria?
17:53:53 From john torday : A concept is an abstraction of the material as energy IMHO
17:54:16 From Louis H Kauffman : Mind energy.
17:54:41 From Mark Johnson : 1. A mind is an aggregate of interacting parts or components
2. The interaction between parts of mind is triggered by difference, and difference is a non substantial phenomenon not located in space or time; difference is related tonegentropy and entropy rather than to energy.3.
Mental process requires collateral energy4.
Mental process requires circular (or more complex) chains of determination
In mental process, the effects of difference are to be regarded as transforms (i.e., coded versions) of events which preceded them
. The rules of such transformation must becomparatively stable (i.e., more stable than the content) but are themselves subject totransformation.6.
The description and classification of these processes of transformation disclose ahierarchy of logical types immanent in the phenomena
17:55:08 From Mark Johnson : sorry – bad formatting
17:55:13 From john torday : Mind Energy Cosmos
17:55:59 From Louis H Kauffman : Mark, where is awareness or consciousness in your model of mind?
17:56:17 From john torday : Problem I have with Bateson is failure to transcend the synchronic and enter the diachronic, i.e. ‘history’
17:57:02 From Mark Johnson : yes – that may be a fair criticism of Bateson, I agree.
17:58:14 From john torday : Not semantic, fundamental to understanding consciousness as congruence with the Consciousness of the Cosmos
17:59:05 From Mark Johnson : Lou, I think consciousness/awareness lies in an interference pattern (hologram) between synchronic and diachronic parameters at multiple levels of organisation… much like Peter’s rewrite system, and which provides us with anticipation, presence and hindsight
17:59:52 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : I’m into Martin Buber, ‘I and Thou’, where we kill in 3rd person language (we need to do this for communication). 2nd person relationships with all/ any, recognises living beings (towards communing)
17:59:57 From Louis H Kauffman : Mark, I think that awareness is fundamental, arising along with each difference or distinction.
18:00:23 From Mark Johnson : yes – I agree with that
18:01:57 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Awareness is beyond distinction. Consciousness brings distinction
18:02:41 From Fredric Young : that seems to be Mike Manthey’s route to machine awareness
18:04:28 From john torday : Lou and Mark, if I may, I think that awareness is the result of left brain-right brain perceiving Quantum Mechanical features of our surroundings and ourselves in order to obtain epigenetic data for evolutionary change
18:05:32 From Louis H Kauffman : “We take as given the idea of distinction and the idea of indication and that it is not possible to make an indication without drawing a distinction.” Awareness :: Consciousness :: Distinction: Indication, but the right hand side is shifted one step in the direction away from void.
18:05:34 From john torday : The left brain-right brain property is an exaptation of the lipid orientation vertical to the surface of the ocean
18:08:09 From Mark Johnson : does the left-brain tune into the universe and deep origins – is that awareness? Feels like it to me
18:08:31 From john torday : Where I am coming from is that we have gotten the biologic imperative backwards……once seen from its origin in the unicell, phenotype is no longer an inventory of traits, it is the ‘agency’ for determining charge in the environment, and it does so at the Quantum level using left brain-right brain as a dialectic
18:09:28 From Louis H Kauffman : Dialectic is what happens at once in the recursion of distinction/naming.
18:09:31 From john torday : The resolution of the dialectic is the on-going connection between our consciousness and that of the Cosmos, both based on the Laws of Nature
18:14:14 From Pat Toms : Its BIG
18:14:23 From Graham Ellsbury : ‘Me’ is one of the things my brain does. Awareness is when my brain stops doing it but retains consciousness.
Unfortunately I’m now in the early stages of a migraine. The visual world is shimmering and disolving so I must go. See you all tomorrow.
18:14:33 From James Bowery : There is a tension between biodiversity and human eusociality as described by E. O. Wilson in “The Social Conquest of Earth”.
18:15:38 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : hi Mark, I’m heading off for lunch. I’m looking forward to my talk for tomorrow.
18:15:52 From Mark Johnson to Doug Matzke(Privately) : ok Doug – see you tomorrow
18:15:55 From Doug Matzke : very interesting talk John.
18:17:52 From Vanessa Hill : Frederick Young what is your email? Ill send the Indian paper now…
18:18:42 From Pat Toms : But cant language of experience not be concepts? Experience of harmonic sound
18:18:58 From Vanessa Hill : Yes the chladni patterns f Rosslyn chapel was IMO my idea given to the Knights of Rosslyn and they then pursued it further to get the notes
18:19:29 From Fredric Young : thank you youngfy |a|
18:19:42 From Vanessa Hill : the patterns rlate to the majic sqares…which are also used to lay down the ground pan of the Chapel…
18:19:45 From Pat Toms : But the chladni patterns are infinitely variable in form as it dpends on the shape of the plate, choose anyone you want
18:20:34 From Louis H Kauffman : Every experience that enters into language (is described) is accompanied by concept. And there are concepts that may not become apparent without further insight. Think of the first experiences of seeing images of Saturn and the later interaction that lead to concept of Saturn’s rings and the corresponding change in the experience of the image.
18:20:38 From Vanessa Hill : The patterns are generated by laying our the majoc squares and placing weights on the plates where certain numbers sit and using a bow to excite the sand…
18:20:43 From Pat Toms : Rosslyn was not conceived as a chapel, it was christenized
18:21:14 From Vanessa Hill : It was crhistiasnised against the wishes of the builders
18:21:43 From Vanessa Hill : It was a chapel built to Honour those that carried the secrets to their deaths
18:22:14 From Vanessa Hill : The secrets are in the stone itself
18:22:52 From john torday : To Pat Toms, I think language leads to idea, which then becomes concept when related to consciousness/organic whole/Cosmos
18:26:18 From Vanessa Hill : Frederick, I have sent you the paper…
18:27:12 From Pat Toms : A language may serve that purpose but another language as communication may just be about empathy with form (perceived of course)
18:27:38 From Fredric Young : appreciate it. Thank you Vanessa.
18:28:54 From Louis H Kauffman : Pat, yes, as you led us through such language last year in relation to being in Anstruther space.
18:29:05 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thank you, John. I need to go
18:31:01 From Vanessa Hill : Many of the cathedrals are again the plan are based upon magic squares…eg Litchfield cathedral is based upon the majic square associated with Mars…
18:36:07 From Vanessa Hill : But the God is hung upside down on Ydrisil…
18:36:39 From Pat Toms : Is the goddess upright?
18:37:30 From Vanessa Hill : I don’t know Pat…
18:40:20 From Louis H Kauffman : I am,maybe I think.
18:41:36 From john torday : I am conscious, and therefore in communication with the Consciousness of the Cosmos
18:43:17 From Fredric Young : I believe you are connected to the energy of the cosmos, but what is the evidence for that?
18:48:15 From john torday : When you put cells in zero gravity they become comatose, so I think that’s evidence for we are connected with the energy of the cosmos- electromagnetic forces
18:48:18 From Divyamaan Sahoo : raga rasa relationship
18:48:36 From Fredric Young : I meant consciousness of the cosmos not the energy f the cosmos
18:48:46 From Vanessa Hill : Hakim of Egypt told me similar re resonance and healing in ancient Egypt…he was said to be the holder of the kbowledge of ancient Egypt…
18:49:01 From john torday : Life entrains non-life, making the latter intelligible
18:50:04 From john torday : Of course there are cultural differences in aesthetics, but they are more similar to one another than to the inanimate
18:50:18 From Fredric Young : yes the zero gravity experiment is convincing evidence about the energy but what is the evidence for the consciousness of the cosmos?
18:51:18 From Pat Toms : There’s no physical evidence …
18:51:52 From Louis H Kauffman : The evidence for the consciousness of the cosmos is that we are the “children” of the cosmos and we are of the cosmos and we are aware of “our” consciousness. That consciousness of which we are aware is not our posssion, it is of the cosmos.
18:52:26 From john torday : Our consciousness is derived from Endosymbiotic Theory, that we have evolved by internalizing stuff in the environment. As a consequence, our milieu interior must comply with the same Laws of Nature as those of the Cosmos, hence the relationship between our consciousness and how the Cosmos operates…..Cosmic Consciousness is an anthropomorphism if you will
18:54:44 From Fredric Young : I think that our consciousness is the consciousness of the cosmos but I think that most neurobiologists would disagree
18:57:52 From Michael Horner : John wonderful. I like the phrase Slough off the barnacles, and also get rid of the pomposity of our own models. The golden ratio is as a continued fraction is in a way the most random schem possible. Thanks again
19:03:46 From john torday : Fred, yeah, neurobiologists are fixated on the brain as the material manifestation of consciousness, but it had been shown years ago that a neuron can synthesize insulin, for example, to remind us that all cells other than RBCs possess the same genome. Consciousness is distributive, not localized within the brain….it’s just a large collection of neurons.
19:05:04 From Fredric Young : Yes John Good point. I agree with your view
Doug Matzke. The Hyperdimensional Deep Reality of Real Intelligence

00:11:43 Keith Bowden: Bob Campbell, who also contributed to the Proceedings, also died recently.
00:12:15 Keith Bowden: It’s a PC! 🙂
00:13:26 Keith Bowden: And the stock price is soaring! 🙂
00:16:22 Joseph Brenner: Message for John Hyatt: sorry I missed your talk for personal reasons. Could you send a publication of yours on your subejct to joe.brenner |a| ? Thank you. Joseph
01:06:57 Richard Heiberger: random numbersfll mainly in the plane
01:10:24 John Hyatt: Hi Joe, I am going to fix the video where Mark’s computer glitched. Then, I will happily send you a copy of that. I can send you the Powerpoint if you wish but videos and sound might not travel well divorced from their source files. john.hyatt2 |a|
01:12:22 Fredric Young: Hi John. Please send me the video as well. youngfy |a| thank you
01:13:30 John Hyatt: OK Fredric, sure will. I’ll probably get it re-recorded by next week. I am away from tomorrow until Sunday.
01:15:06 Rachel Moore: Omg a Lisp aura ???? Maybe mine has all the semicolons I forgot
01:16:06 Graham Ellsbury: Lol! I abandoned LISP program for Scheme
01:16:43 Louis H Kauffman: In the Records there is a book of all the patterns of semicolons that you forgot and all the semicolons that have every been or every will be forgotten. All in superposition.
01:17:03 Vanessa Hill: loads of orbs photographed at resonance conference in Fintry, John showed one yesterdAY
01:18:07 Graham Ellsbury: gotta collapse the state vector to get those semi-colons clear
01:18:16 John Hyatt: I did. I didn’t mention that but I thought I’d let people spot it for themselves.
01:22:01 Richard Heiberger: Walk-in is a new term to me. is this a dybbuk?
01:23:38 Vanessa Hill: Peter R, do you remember Robert Williams who did those Qlink things….he was following Tiller apparently?.
01:23:49 Louis H Kauffman: If you collapse the SemiColon State Vector you only get one instance. But you can instantiate GroverSearch on Records and get the semicolon pattern y’r looking for with good probability. GroverSearch is the preferred method for working with the Records.
01:24:10 Peter Rowlands: Yes, I remember well
01:26:42 Graham Ellsbury: I’ll check out GroverSearch – in the meantime I’ll continue debugging in the collapsed state
01:27:18 Louis H Kauffman: Aye mon, ye are in superposition when ye debug.
01:27:45 Graham Ellsbury: Wheeler is not the originator of that quote, though it is often misattributed to him.
01:29:28 Graham Ellsbury: The quote is from Ray Cummings (sp?)
01:30:22 Fredric Young: Wheeler wanted to debunk parapsychology
01:31:17 Graham Ellsbury: yeah I’m often in two minds when programmig
01:33:09 Graham Ellsbury: … or two worlds …
01:33:56 Louis H Kauffman: In looking for typos or errors you put yourself in suspended superposition and scan, pouncing on the little bugs when then appear. Those are collapses of wave function. You could do this forever, but at some point you make a final projection and quit.
01:34:51 Richard Heiberger: This quote has been mistakenly attributed to Albert Einstein, Richard Feynman, Woody Allen, John Archibald Wheeler, and likely others, in many different forms.—
01:35:25 Graham Ellsbury: yes it has but Ray Cummings is the originator
01:36:34 John Hyatt: I must say I was pretty close. I drew a horizontal (yellow) banana with black spots where Doug’s thing had a black band!
01:36:49 Mark Johnson: I had mr blobby
01:37:18 Vanessa Hill: I got the ball and lots of spinning colours…
01:40:09 john torday: A head, a body and an arm
01:44:33 Rachel Moore: I got an opalescent/transluscent light blue ball and am curious if the ball is actually light blue when not turned on/spinning
01:47:41 Nicola Graves-Gregory: Who wrote ‘Sparse Distribution Energy’?
01:50:22 Fredric Young: I really enjoyed this talk. I’ve believed things were this way for 40 years. When John Williamson said there were a thousand models of the aether I thought we will make progress when there is only one. I suspect it is something like Doug’s model of the proto-level.
01:52:32 Graham Ellsbury: John Bell wanted to return to some form of aether
01:55:40 Vanessa Hill: If it wasn’t for a psychic lady telling me I must go to the meeting I wasn’t going to go to, I would not have met Peter R….
01:56:18 john torday: Not to self promote, but in my presentation I began with lipids orienting upward in water as ‘antennae’ for electromotive force…..that evolves into the nervous system, lined with lipids peripherally and centrally. So then the question is how to open up to the emus of the cosmos to achieve what Doug is suggesting?
01:57:42 John Hyatt: We need to listen to the Mirror Ball Trojan Horse, John!
01:57:53 John Hyatt: :^)
01:58:01 john torday: Actually it’s more complex physiologically because we are deuterostomes, forming from anus to mouth, and then we do another ‘twist’ when the hemispheres of our brains, left and right become the antennae Doug’s talking about that I think sense the Quantum Mechanical basis for the Cosmos
01:58:51 john torday: John- Beware of Gifts bearing Greeks!
01:59:53 John Hyatt: Neigh, lad!
02:00:54 john torday: And even more complex is are the twists and turns of the embryo during development. Wolpert said that the most important thing we do in life is to gastrulate, which is the step when the mesoderm is inserted between the endoderm and ectoderm and confers the plasticity on our being
02:02:46 john torday: The ‘neigh’ comes from the front of the Trojan Horse
02:03:48 john torday: Life forms Bohm’s Explicate Order, so is what Doug’s talking about being receptive to the Implicate Order?
02:07:58 john torday: What is the Quantum input that makes the head on Doug’s contraption ‘spin’ and light up?
02:10:02 john torday: Is the Quantum input that resonates the stuff that’s in sync with the vectorial change of the inflationary Cosmos
02:14:58 john torday: I think what’s missing from Doug’s model is the portal for the interface between the Implicate and Explicate
02:15:37 john torday: Friston has shown that in REM sleep the brain cools in order to sort out what’s been experienced during the day
02:16:14 Louis H Kauffman: Is there a portal or do we construct stories about the difference between implicate and explicate for our usual needs for a good story.
02:16:50 john torday: I think that the bicameral brain is the ‘portal’ as the antenna for the signals from the Implicate
02:17:10 Nicola Graves-Gregory: Explanation is storytelling
02:17:37 john torday: There is total internal consistency between embryology, physiology and consciousness
02:17:43 Louis H Kauffman: You have an important distinction Implicate/Explicate that needs to be explored.
02:17:56 John Hyatt: Certainly, John, my first experience of such things was long before the near death experience and it included a burning of the temples.
02:18:34 john torday: As I have said, life began with the distinction between the Explicate and Implicate by mixing oil and water
02:18:47 john torday: Which temples?
02:18:49 Vanessa Hill: another instance of psychic finding is Lynn Claire
Dennis and Kushner . The discovery of two new geometric forms

17:05:36 From Doug Matzke : if anyone wants to share their remote viewing images from yesterday, please email them me. doug |a|
17:12:20 From Graham Ellsbury : they’re beautiful
17:25:10 From Graham Ellsbury : I want one!
17:49:54 From Doug Matzke : a bird nest
17:58:32 From Rachel Moore : Slide 11 or 12 looks like the geometry inspired church 1 block away from my apartment
18:16:14 From Peter Rowlands : Euclid prop 1 book 1
18:20:38 From Fredric Young : Hi Vanessa. What are those slides from?
18:20:45 From Vanessa Hill : my own
18:21:05 From Louis H Kauffman : Vanessa, can you share that slide show with us?
18:21:46 From Fredric Young : Yes I am very interested as well.
18:29:44 From Divyamaan Sahoo : wanted to share this with chad you may have seen this already:’s%20laws%20describe%20the%20shape,same%20piece%20of%20soap%20film
18:32:33 From Richard Heiberger : lynneclaire, can you post a jpeg of he rabbi’s painting
18:34:50 From Barbara Gabrys : Mark there is an option to allow participants to attach file, I think. You have to go out from a meeting, go to your account at and check options for setting meetings.
18:35:23 From Mark Johnson : ok – thanks Barbara – I’ll check – it might depend on what the Liverpool management have allowed 😉
18:36:58 From john torday : It’s homeostasis
18:43:56 From Pat Toms : Hartmut Warm in his book and program Signature f the Celestial Sphere demonstrates harmonic feature of the sola system, planet orbits and finds ‘musical’ integer ratios between selected planets which relate to Keplers Star figure.
18:58:12 From Vanessa Hill : Perhaps its time to catch up Lynneclaire? Vanessa_whill |a|
18:59:39 From Graham Ellsbury : The Divine Proportion by H E Huntley
18:59:59 From Graham Ellsbury : (who taught me maths at school)
19:01:57 From Vanessa Hill : Im sorry Im going to have to go now….
19:02:09 From Vanessa Hill : back again
19:03:40 From Pat Toms : Thanks Lynneclaire!
19:05:52 From Graham Ellsbury : You’ve gone Mark
19:06:18 From Divyamaan Sahoo : mark you can type the announcement on chat
19:06:47 From Brant Hindman : Will you be posting the video anywhere? Would love to stay connected. Great meeting with you all.
Leon Conrad The Qualitative Aspect of Classical Logic and its Relation to Laws of Form

17:08:08 From john torday : Watching videos in a group is due to an exchange of pheromones
17:15:09 From Doug Matzke : voting is not virtual
17:15:44 From john torday : Tell that to Mayor Daily
17:15:45 From Doug Matzke : live talks also are aided by telepathy
17:15:58 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Yes
17:17:58 From wolfgang baer : Unless you want to get a little more realistic about modeling and developing a theory of consciousness these statements are just symbolic speculation
17:26:29 From Joseph Brenner : Glasperlenspiel
17:27:05 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Don’t we all love it!!!!
17:28:20 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : There’s a lovely little book which looks at the glass bead game as Castaneda different ways of using our eyes exercises.
17:30:06 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Would you give me your e-address, please, Joseph?
17:31:03 From Louis H Kauffman : In LoF the interpretations are: <a>b = all a are b, ab = <<a>>b = all not a are b, <<a>b> = not (all a are b) = some a are not b, <<a><b>> = some a are b, etc. These interpretations work as linguistic transcriptions with a simplified algebra where <<x>> = x, xy = yx and to other evaluations. Thus the sllogism All a are b. All b are c. Therefore All a are c. transcirbes to <a>b and <b>c implies <a>c which in this algebra (using a and b = <<a><b>>) and simplifying: <<a>b><<b>c><a>c. This is BARBARA. Other syllogisms that are valid come from this pattern by permutation, substitution and the use of the restricted algebra. Enough! But it is very interesting to look at variants of these systems. In modern symbolic logic one has operators for for all and there exists and more available expression.
17:32:00 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Barbara, did you know your parents gave you a perfect syllogism?
17:32:41 From Barbara Gabrys : As my Christian name is Barbara, I must humbly accept this superiority 🙂
17:33:10 From Mark Johnson : can you express that syllogistically?
17:33:37 From Barbara Gabrys : BTW it was very popular when I was little which took some charm off it somehow…
17:34:46 From Louis H Kauffman : Ms. Gabrys is Barbara. Barbara is a perfect syllogism. Therefore Ms. Gabrys is a perfect syllogism.
17:35:12 From Mark Johnson : wonderful!
17:35:15 From Barbara Gabrys : Thank you Lou!
17:35:48 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : We are all blessed by your presence, Barbara!
17:36:19 From Mark Johnson : there’s another one then!
17:36:47 From Barbara Gabrys : There is no more space left for my ego in the whole universe – it took it all over! Please let the air out of it…
17:39:07 From Louis H Kauffman : Note that Spencer-Brown admits that his method of evaluation using full algebra in LoF does NOT work for the syllogistic evaluations. That is the reason for the “linguistic” nature of the interpretation that I wrote above. It all comes back together when you add operators for For all and There exists, but this is beyond truth tables and beyond 0,1 evaluation.
17:40:49 From Louis H Kauffman : G_d is the that of which nothing more perfect can be conceived. Further derivations are left for the reader.
17:44:05 From Louis H Kauffman : If <a>b means “all a are b”, then ab = <<a>>b means “All not a are b”. It does not represent “Some a are b.”
17:49:21 From Leon Conrad : From Leibniz’s De Arte Combinatoria (frontispiece), 1690
Image source: Deutsche Fotothek (Public Domain)
For links to Alchemy and Geometry of Logic, see
17:52:17 From Graham Ellsbury : you need to be a philosopher not a mathematician or a physicist to answer that question!
17:57:01 From Graham Ellsbury : I would be amazed if the world was not amenable to mathematical analysis
17:59:18 From Leon Conrad : “The discipline of mathematics is seen to be a way, powerful in comparison with others, of revealing our internal knowledge of the structure of the world, and only by the way associated with our common ability to reason and compute.”
“What is encompassed, in mathematics, is a transcedence from a given state of vision to a new, and hitherto unapparent, vision beyond it. When the present existence has ceased to make sense, it can still come to sense again through the realization of its form.”
17:59:55 From Rachel Moore : This guy has lots of papers on Leibniz and the I Ching (much of it related to physics), hadn’t thought about him in a long time
18:00:11 From Rachel Moore : Can’t find the paper I wanted though
18:00:29 From john torday : If language is derived from our physiology as cell-cell communication, and mathematics is a meta language, then math and physics should be constrained by the biology
18:00:51 From Leon Conrad : There’s an excellent section on Leibniz and the I Ching in Bernie Lewin’s book Enthusiastic Mathematics
18:04:57 From Graham Ellsbury : I touched an object on my desk which makes no noise
18:05:52 From Graham Ellsbury : It’s a shadow. Is that an object?
18:05:54 From john torday : Math and physics exist in Bohm’s Implicate Order. It is only once life formed Bohm’s Explicate Order that math and physics came together
18:05:55 From Leon Conrad : Maybe it was below the threshold of your awareness? In fairness, Peter did say ‘if’ it makes a noise.
18:07:26 From Rachel Moore : The body can’t tell the difference between something it imagines and something it experiences.
18:07:41 From wolfgang baer : Lou do you really believe the number 3 exists without some implementation – the very idea of a distinction implies a two sides of the same coin – you cannot separate the sides from the coin, or how does one do it?
18:08:22 From Louis H Kauffman : No. The number three exists by dint of all that implementation!
18:09:06 From wolfgang baer : What Rachel? You canot tell the difference between a sensory sensation and a memory recall sensation?
18:09:17 From Doug Matzke : qualia is idea of subjective experiences of things like “color”
18:09:32 From Leon Conrad : The number 1 is a triplicity – how can there be a 1 without a beginning, middle, and end? 3 just separates those elements out, surely …
18:10:03 From Louis H Kauffman : A distinction is a triplicity: Father,Son and Holy Ghost.
18:10:36 From Rachel Moore : The mind can tell the difference!
18:11:31 From Doug Matzke : perhaps explain hot the mind works, not necessarily the brain.
18:11:39 From john torday : If 1/0 is infinity, mathematics exists in the Implicate…..then how the physics merges with the mathematics is due to human consciousness formed by oil mixing with water…..absent that, there is no connection per se between math and physics…’s all in our heads
18:11:52 From Doug Matzke : how*
18:12:18 From Louis H Kauffman : Implicate is Tao is the (not)that from which every(thing) comes.
18:12:32 From john torday : The cell is homologous with he atom, both of which are deterministic and probabilistic…..that’s how
18:14:24 From Doug Matzke : “best” is up interpretative, see my slide on “hard problem of real intelligence”
18:14:54 From john torday : “Everything” material comes from homeostasis as the ‘equal and opposite reaction’ generating the Explicate Order as matter
18:15:30 From Michael Horner to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Please limit contributions to be shorter than the speaker.
18:15:32 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : mark, please limit peter.
18:15:40 From Michael Horner to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Mike Horner
18:17:57 From Mark Johnson to Michael Horner(Privately) : it
18:18:03 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : this is leon’s talk, not peters 🙂
18:18:07 From Mark Johnson to Michael Horner(Privately) : its difficult…
18:18:27 From Michael Horner to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Can you mute other people as host.
18:18:39 From john torday : The reason why we can conceive of math and physics is because we have evolved by endogenizing matter from the environment, referred to as Endosymbiosis Theory
18:19:09 From Graham Ellsbury : You have the right idea Andrew!
18:20:33 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : I have a question about time and law of attraction
18:21:02 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : What did Andrew say?G_d can also be seen as the source of negentropy. I got this from the Asimov short story
18:21:30 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Who gave us the Asimov? Thank you
18:21:59 From Graham Ellsbury : He didn’t say anything – he had a generous glass of red.
18:22:08 From john torday : So our physiology makes ‘sense’ of our being in our environment by compartmentalizing the physical and making it ‘organic’… is in that process that we understand mathematics and physics, i.e. we are able to understand them as consciousness, an anthropomorphism of the Consciousness of the Cosmos.
18:22:12 From Richard Heiberger : I posted the link. Asimov wrote the story.
18:24:42 From Leon Conrad : How does the numeral 7 have 7 points or lines?
18:25:23 From Louis H Kauffman : Sure. So 7 as a symbol is different from |||||||.
18:25:34 From Barbara Gabrys : Any theory goes only so far?
18:25:52 From Richard Heiberger : domino 7 :.: :, or ::: .
18:26:07 From Doug Matzke : what is “sevenness” in it’s most naked form.?
18:26:12 From Louis H Kauffman : And we would like to know how far. The purpose of having a theory is to explore how far you can push it.
18:26:31 From Leon Conrad : Can people typing go on mute? It would help comprehension. Thanks
18:28:43 From john torday to Mark Johnson(Privately) : I’m not getting any traction in trying to bridge the Explicate and Implicate Orders as biology. Isn’t there a problem in talking strictly about abstractions when trying to understand logic? Don’t you have to constrain that consideration biologically by connecting the cell and the atom, for example, as homologues?
18:29:15 From Graham Ellsbury : There are non-commutative structures with time in Lof via cobordisms
18:29:49 From Barbara Gabrys to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Mark I’ll have to go soon. Just wanted to say that the title of my talk on Monday is now ‘The coded language of Zen’, with some remote connection to environment
18:30:10 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Michael, what is the name of the Italian philosopher you referenced? Alberto who?
18:31:27 From Michael Wright : It is Alberto Peruzzi. I can circulate a list of some of his papers on this topic.
18:32:15 From Mark Johnson to Barbara Gabrys(Privately) : great! – but I was hoping to give you the last question 😉
18:32:52 From Barbara Gabrys to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Then give me now a change to advertise 🙂
18:33:50 From Michael Wright : The other book I mentioned – which Nicola also references – is “Greek Mathematical Thought and the Origins of Modern Algebra” by Jakob Klein
18:34:08 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : which day is Rachel Moore talking?
18:34:31 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : my last schedule update was for Monday?
18:35:28 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : please resend the final schedule
18:35:38 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thank you. Yes,please, for the papers.
18:38:47 From Mark Johnson to Doug Matzke(Privately) : Rachel is Monday following
18:39:08 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : oh, right thanks
18:39:48 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thank you,,Richard
18:40:06 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Monday is Labor day in the US.
18:40:59 From Leon Conrad : leon |a|
18:42:12 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Doug, I am co-creating a Sacred Math’s and Liberal Arts festival – 3rd one – and the Title of this one is The Rainbow Tree. 7 in number, music, space and astronomy
18:42:45 From Doug Matzke : sounds like fun
18:43:32 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Math’s in practice is play (Homo Ludens, Huizinga)
18:45:33 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Sahoo, the festival September 2021, will go into qualitative mathematics live.
18:45:54 From Divyamaan Sahoo : yay, is there a way to sign up?
18:46:08 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Theists like to say thank you
18:46:17 From Doug Matzke : A single inverter creates an oscillator and double inverter creates a memory regiistor
18:47:16 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Sahoo, email 9harmonia |a|
18:48:57 From Doug Matzke : Labor day in the US on MO=onday
18:50:13 From Divyamaan Sahoo : nicola i’ll send you an email!
Week 5:
Barbara Gabrys.

Zen and environment

(Video private)

Samuel Lomonaco. Quantum Knots Revisited

17:34:16 From Graham Ellsbury : Philosopher Turf! Love it!
17:41:45 From Keith Bowden : What does physically implementable mean in this context?
17:44:37 From Louis H Kauffman : It means the same as what that means in all of quantum computing. A system is physically implementable if there is a way to actually make the unitary transformations and measurements in physical reality. For example we have quantum computation in this sense up to about 7 quits using NMR technology. This is NOT adiabatic quantum computing. The physical implementation has to satisfy the “nutshell” description of quantum mechanics.
17:46:02 From Keith Bowden : OK. I wasn’t thinking of quantum computing.
17:46:34 From Louis H Kauffman : This is entirely formulatied in terms of quantum computing point of view.
17:47:08 From Keith Bowden : I see now.
17:48:29 From Keith Bowden : Interesting. I have thought of the quantum mirror array a bit like this.
17:49:24 From Graham Ellsbury : Great talk Sam – please will you make the pdf available.
17:49:59 From Graham Ellsbury : I found that absolutely fascinating
17:51:00 From Keith Bowden : I noticed tile flip wasn’t a move.
17:51:23 From Keith Bowden : (Mirror.)
17:52:26 From Louis H Kauffman : What do you mean by “flip”. Do you mean the Tait “flype”. That is a composition of Reidemeister moves. It turns out that ambient isotopy of alternating knots is generated by Flypes (so called Tait conjectures).
17:52:47 From Keith Bowden : I mean mirror image.
17:53:15 From Louis H Kauffman : You would not make that a move, since many knots are not equivalent to their mirror images.
17:54:35 From Keith Bowden : But the mirrors of the Reid moves hold.
18:02:16 From Louis H Kauffman : Trefoil knot is not equivalent to its mirror image under Reidemeister moves.
18:03:04 From Keith Bowden : I was asking about the mirrors of the moves not of the knows.
18:03:12 From Keith Bowden : *knots.
18:04:04 From Louis H Kauffman : Each move has a number of cases. He probably only showed you one case. When we speak of the Reidemeister moves we mean each move type and all the cases that it connotes.
18:04:45 From Keith Bowden : It was the mirrors of the tiles representing the moves that I thought were missing.
18:06:21 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thank you, Sam (and Lou). That was beautifully clarifying. The measurement slide with the philosopher’s turf, is great!
18:06:59 From Doug Matzke : there is a game that uses tiles like you 11 moves. check it out here
18:08:52 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. It has a nice set of cardboard tiles.
18:09:19 From Doug Matzke : my son-in-law is a gamer and I have played it
18:21:54 From Graham Ellsbury : Yes I think they’re by Joy Christian
18:22:30 From Graham Ellsbury : but my understanding is that they’re controversial and not generally accepted
18:22:53 From Keith Bowden : That is true.
18:23:14 From Doug Matzke : my PhD dissertation
18:24:23 From Keith Bowden : Doug – is there a url for the paper you mentioned as well?
18:28:26 From Keith Bowden : Reminder – it is the Cybernetics Soc meeting this weekend.
18:28:30 From Doug Matzke : page 110
18:29:27 From Keith Bowden :
18:29:53 From Rachel Moore : I am not! rachel |a|
18:30:00 From Divyamaan Sahoo : me too! Divyamaan Sahoo dsahoo |a|
18:31:34 From Peter Rowlands : me too jrist29 |a|
18:33:13 From Rachel Moore : I also have this problem when requesting a password
18:33:39 From Divyamaan Sahoo : we should probably stop recording lol
18:34:23 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : email admin |a| to go onto anna chat
Colin Rourke. Inertial drag, dark matter and astrology

17:13:28 From Graham Ellsbury : So this event happened in June – trying to figure out what it is …
17:14:54 From Peter Rowlands : Near miss by asteroid?
17:15:43 From Graham Ellsbury : D-Day?
17:27:09 From john torday : 2008 Financial Collapse?
17:29:23 From Barbara Gabrys : I’m quite fond of dark matter – would that be an astronomical equivalent of ether; neither provable?
17:32:42 From Graham Ellsbury : I think the financial collapse was later in the year than this event
17:33:13 From john torday : So the ‘event’ predicted the Financial Collapse?
17:34:06 From Barbara Gabrys : That would be what we call ‘stretching the facts’…
17:34:19 From john torday : ……Given that the Financial Collapse was a ‘house of cards’
17:35:53 From john torday : Just start with Madoff and follow the money….that ‘stretch’?
17:39:23 From Barbara Gabrys : More like ‘adjusting’ facts to fit sb’s favourite model
17:40:17 From john torday : sb?
17:40:47 From Barbara Gabrys : Anyone – I’m not being personal here
18:00:58 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : JFK assassination?
18:01:04 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : 9/11?
18:01:12 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Krakatoa?
18:01:40 From Richard Heiberger : asteroids crashed into jupiter
18:03:53 From Doug Matzke : drum roll and the answer is?
18:04:57 From john torday : Hind sight is 20-20
18:06:02 From john torday : On that day/date I entered a Chinese restaurant in Boston MA
18:08:06 From Graham Ellsbury : .. and Nix and Hydra …
18:08:16 From Graham Ellsbury : and others
18:10:08 From Rachel Moore : The big bang
18:11:56 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Thanks very much for this, Colin. I need to go. I’m interested in the astrological theory. Also the galaxies. I’ll get in touch soon. Thanks and blessings x
18:18:58 From Graham Ellsbury : Mike not working
18:19:09 From Graham Ellsbury : What is the evidence against the big bang?
18:28:33 From Graham Ellsbury : Can’t get my mic to work.
18:28:54 From Graham Ellsbury : What percentage of interacting galaxies which have a connecting gas filament have objects like objects 2 and 3 in them?
18:33:35 From Barbara Gabrys : Yes but how many scientific reputations were built on fancy theories?
18:33:44 From Graham Ellsbury : Ok, so what are these objects? Stellar clusters?
18:33:53 From Rachel Moore : Andrew — how do you spell the names?
18:35:18 From john torday : Andrew, if images are critically important in science, but we only ‘see what we believe’ how does that work?
18:41:12 From john torday : Ditto on the ‘bandwagon’ effect in biology…..Francis Collins, Director of NIH, is adamantly against epigenetic research, wanting to beat gene centric research to death
18:42:25 From Rachel Moore : A VC for academic moonshots
18:43:32 From John Hyatt : Sorry I have to go now. Thank you, Colin. John W, I would be very pleased to be invited to Quicycle. Speaking from a Rock and Roll perspective. perhaps Science is having its bloated its Big record company funded Prog Rock moment and we are the new Punk Rockers?
18:45:13 From john torday : Having sat on NIH Study Section on and off for 50 years, the deliberations about the merit of a grant proposal always revolved around the technology, never the concept, so it’s just more and more data without a paradigm. And then the Informaticists say if you haven’t solved the problem you need more data, as if biology were a closed system!
18:47:03 From john torday : John W, you’re talking about The Hughes Foundation
18:49:55 From Barbara Gabrys : Colin thank you so much for your talk – it’s lovely to look up to the sky! However I’m pulled by the earthly duties again, and have to go.
Anton Vrba. Project Poincare

18:09:34 From john torday : Isn’t the goal of ‘explanation’ to predict?
18:10:09 From Peter Rowlands : A quote from Byron:
18:10:38 From Peter Rowlands : And Coleridge’s muse has lately taken wing
18:10:58 From Peter Rowlands : Explaining metaphysics to the nation.
18:11:14 From Peter Rowlands : I wish he would explain his explanation.
18:13:37 From Louis H Kauffman : goal of explanation is not necc to predict. I explain a proof of pythagoras theorem to you, not to predict it but to show how it follows from the assumptiions of euclidean geometry. but after all if i explain the spectrum of hydrogen with SE, then i get a big payoff of predictions about other physical phenomena as well. and a good mathematical explantation usually has a lot of consequences. consequences are predictions at math level.
18:17:15 From Louis H Kauffman : However, if the theory affects the practice (as it does in say the stock market) then the very presence of the theory and its “predictions” can change the reality and cause the predictions to fail.
18:17:59 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Andrew Wiles’ ‘explanation’ of Fermat’s last theorem linked areas of math’s that had seemed quite separate
18:18:39 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : The stock market as a quantum world!
18:20:42 From Divyamaan Sahoo : “the primary form of mathematical communication is not description but injunction” gsb
18:29:48 From john torday : Why are we the only species that’s destroying the planet?
18:30:23 From john torday : Because unlike every other species, we are unconstrained
18:31:18 From john torday : Florida has voted for Trump, and they will be under water first!
18:32:18 From john torday : We are the only species that ‘knows that we know’
18:34:30 From Barbara Gabrys : About mathematics and physics – not an exact quote from Stanislaw Lem’s Summa Technologiae:
18:34:59 From john torday : I think Peter M was correct when he said we could go at ‘warped speed’
18:35:48 From Barbara Gabrys : “Mathematicians are mad tailors: they are making “all the possible clothes” hoping to make also something suitable for dressing…
Stanislaw Lem, “Summa Technologiae” and physicists patiently wander in between these piles, trying to find something which would fit” –
18:36:45 From Graham Ellsbury : I love that quotation!
18:37:00 From Rachel Moore : Por que no los dos
18:37:19 From Louis H Kauffman : Carroll invented the Mad Hatter. Now I understand!
18:38:14 From Graham Ellsbury : We’re lucky that we’re alive at all.
18:40:49 From Graham Ellsbury : Yes I meant both quotations – I’d not heard them before.
18:42:47 From john torday : And you know that the Hatters were ‘mad’ because of the mercury in the felt
18:43:25 From Louis H Kauffman : That is a good explanation. The mathematicians are mad because of the logic that they felt.
18:43:57 From Graham Ellsbury : Carroll directed Tenniel to visit a local furniture salesman, Howard Carter, upon whom the hatter is based.
18:44:35 From john torday : Crazy idea!
18:45:15 From Divyamaan Sahoo : thank you for the talk anton
18:46:01 From john torday : Lou, being ‘mercurial’ is probably not a good trait as a mathematician
18:46:37 From Rachel Moore : I have to miss tomorrow (first haircut since the pandemic started) but I will catch up on the talk when it’s posted
18:47:07 From Barbara Gabrys : Anton thank you for the talk I must go to close the greenhouse … bye!
Louis Kauffman. Philosophical, Physical and Mathematical Experiments with Knots

17:38:08 From Anton Vrba :
17:56:18 From Joseph Brenner : Life is substrate-dependent.
18:02:35 From Joseph Brenner : I would like know more about the non-Boolean case.
18:46:49 From Divyamaan Sahoo : (Figure 3)
18:49:53 From Barbara Gabrys : Lou thank you so much! In a strange twist I’ve learned calculus on manifolds as a fist year physics student in Wroclaw, sometime in the last century… We were victims of mathematicians experimenting on us. It was fascinating in itself but nobody really knew how to use it in physics. I’ve nearly failed my exams and struggled with orthodox calculus. However later I co-translated Spivak’s Calculus on manifolds (long story). The second Polish edition is now a recommended text for students
18:56:43 From John Williamson : John W. …yes
18:56:55 From Barbara Gabrys : yes
Week 6:
Rachel Moore. Observations on the Observer

17:39:28 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Mark, I have a question when you start Q&A
17:47:29 From Lynnclaire Dennis : LOU!
17:47:36 From Lynnclaire Dennis : wowowowowow
17:47:36 From Divyamaan Sahoo : <3 <3 <3
17:52:47 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Lovely. Thank you – and for the hula hoops . Have to go x x x
17:56:38 From Doug Matzke : children learn and having meaning before language
17:59:19 From Doug Matzke : nice job Rachel
18:00:40 From David McGoveran : Rachel, We should have a chat about Eddie’s very early work / thinking (1970s) sometime. dmcgoveran |a|
18:02:11 From Lynnclaire Dennis : Rachel, I am sorry to leave before Q and A. I have a call with my students teams at University of Colorado. I’ll email you! ???? BIG LOVE
18:03:56 From Louis H Kauffman : Note that the logical garnet is directly related to the inner polyhedron in the Mereon geometry.
18:09:47 From John Torday : Hypothesis: when you use the hula hoop you’re over-riding left-brain-right-brain?
Doug Matzke. Demo of Geometric Algebra Tool

(Doug mesmerised his audience — hence no chat)
Wolfgang Baer. Adding the conscious observer in Physics using special relativity as an example

17:35:56 From Graham Ellsbury : Can anyone else hear Schrodinger’s cat asking to be released from its box before the neutron decays?
17:36:36 From John Williamson : Yes, but note that half of the meows are not audible
17:37:06 From john torday : Are you certain of that?
17:37:17 From Graham Ellsbury : Well maybe that’s 4.5 of its lives gone.
17:37:18 From John Williamson : relatively uncertain
17:38:26 From Roger Anderton : do we count cat was observed if not seen but only heard?
17:39:02 From john torday : It’s the Cheshire Cat
17:40:44 From Peter Rowlands : Note that this is ‘chat’
17:41:06 From john torday : Not ‘dogma’
17:41:36 From John Hyatt : You say it is chat but I think it is alright really
17:43:52 From john torday : ‘categorically’ agree
17:44:30 From Richard Heiberger : if schroedinger’s tree falls and no one is present , does it make a sound
17:45:01 From john torday : CERTAINLY!
17:45:16 From John Hyatt : Does it fall on the cat?
17:45:43 From john torday : Catchup?
18:19:53 From john torday : Isn’t what Wolf is describing here Bohm’s Explicate/Implicate Orders?
18:21:00 From john torday : If so, if we could mathematically express our physiology, we could factor it out of our obervations and be in synch with the external world
18:23:04 From john torday : We have evolved through endosymbiosis, the endogenization of Wolf’s external realm, so in order to reconcile the external and internal, the internal must be factored out
18:27:12 From Roger Anderton : Basically just saying bring back the preferred frame; something that ideally Einstein should have said but didn’t seem to, so suggestive that he wasn’t the main contributor to the theory, with likely candidate that his wife was also involved in writing the theory.
18:30:42 From Graham Ellsbury : John Bell wished to return to a preferred frame
18:37:55 From Rachel Moore : Wolfgang, I would like to know if your loudest cat was a calico….for science
18:41:42 From Louis H Kauffman : Von Foerster: I am the observed relation between myself and observing myself. LK: I = <I<I>>.
18:43:30 From Louis H Kauffman : Any distinction is a trinity: observer, observed, boundary. Father, Son, Holy Ghost. (permute at will).
18:44:17 From john torday : Life began as the ‘boundary’ between the Implicate and Explicate Orders
18:45:00 From Louis H Kauffman : there you are, a BIG distinction. Implicate,Explicate,Boundary Region of the Living.
18:49:58 From Peter Rowlands : A distinction needs 3 because it needs anticommutativity, i. j. k (or ij), or closed cycle. I wouldn’t be surprised if WRH had the Trinity at the back of his mind.
18:50:11 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : I need to go. Thank you, Wolfgang, and all x
18:50:56 From Louis H Kauffman : i,j,k,and 1!
18:52:36 From john torday : A little more mundane to transcendence is Bram Stoker’s ‘Dracula’ who had to take his Hungarian soil with him in order to survive outside of the Motherland
18:55:42 From John Williamson : yes, but 1 is a different one
18:56:08 From john torday : Engineers talk about the ‘signature’ in instrumentation…..I think that our physiologic subjectivity is the ‘noise’ in the way we see the Cosmos
18:58:17 From john torday : I agree with John Hyatt….we make a systematic error in thinking that our primary state of being is material, when in fact it is Whiteheadian energy/process….that would be a deliverable of the congruence of observer/Observed
18:58:53 From Roger Anderton : Wolfgang: in your set-up the acceleration is only experienced by one observer; so difference between observers
18:59:05 From Graham Ellsbury : GE: I = <I<I<I>>>
19:00:40 From john torday : “outside” is not a metaphor….without an inside I would be “outside”
19:01:17 From Roger Anderton : Peter Rowlands: re: Trinity — the theologians were thinking of it in terms of square of opposition, that is probably related to I,j,k cycle
19:05:23 From John Williamson : Must apologise to speakers on Thurs and Fri … I will be away in the wilds. Will catch up later.
19:05:56 From john torday : Outside?
Divyamaan Sahoo. On Appendix 9, “Laws of Form” (revised 6th ed., 2015)

7:21:07 From Joseph Brenner : Is this (beautiful) pure mathematics part of NATURAL philosophy?
17:21:48 From Graham Ellsbury : I would say so, yes.
17:22:26 From peter rowlands : The hope is that it is, if we can relate the 1/2 to, say, the 1/2 in fermionic spin
17:23:38 From Louis H Kauffman : In any case, ANPA is open to mathematical discussions since all such are evocations of how we create and explain worlds. How we create and explain worlds and related them to our human domain is what natural philosophy is about.
17:25:31 From Graham Ellsbury : +1
17:26:57 From Fredric Young : what is called the Hilbert-Polya conjecture states that the non-trivial zeros of the Riemann zeta function correspond to the eigenvalues of some Hermitian operator.
17:27:54 From Graham Ellsbury : Frederic – do you have a reference for that please?
17:28:01 From Louis H Kauffman : Fred’s comment is the hope that indeed the zeros of zeta are “explained” by an associated quantum system!
17:29:50 From Fredric Young : a pretty good discussion is in the non-technical book Prime Obsession by John Derbyshire
17:30:17 From Graham Ellsbury : ok – I have that book but not read all of it
17:30:27 From Louis H Kauffman : Yes. A good combination is to first read Derbyshire and then look at Edwards.
17:30:41 From Graham Ellsbury : in fact I also have GSB’s personal annotated copy
17:49:34 From Rachel Moore : I gotta run to this haircut, Divyamaan I will watch the rest later when it’s on YouTube
18:00:19 From Graham Ellsbury : I wrote and ran a program for GSB and produced about 300 pages of results
18:05:20 From Graham Ellsbury : I had this same conversation with GSB on 23-10-2012
18:06:44 From Graham Ellsbury : GSB told me at that time that Jim was “a very good scholar”
18:10:23 From Anton Vrba : Quantum physics sheds light on Riemann hypothesis:
18:10:44 From Louis H Kauffman : We hope!
18:20:22 From Doug Matzke to Mark Johnson(Privately) : Hi Mark, I have a question when Q&A starts
18:23:50 From Graham Ellsbury : Key point made by Lou – no need for the analytic background
18:24:29 From Louis H Kauffman : But the analytic background is what suggests the connections with quantum systems.
18:30:58 From Leon Conrad : So sorry I have to leave – fascinating work – thank you!
18:39:57 From Graham Ellsbury : Please may we have the reference for Sharon’s paper?
18:46:10 From Fredric Young : 1802.08062
18:51:27 From Fredric Young : Sahoo I really liked your talk
18:52:05 From Graham Ellsbury : Yeah – good talk Sahoo
18:53:58 From Doug Matzke : I have to go to work
Peter Marcer. ANPA’s Quest! Rowlands’ Ruler – the means against which everything in Nature can be measured

17:10:23 From Joseph Brenner : Three quarks for Mustah Mark!
17:12:19 From Louis H Kauffman : Peter, unmet yourself!!!
17:12:38 From Louis H Kauffman : Peter, unmute yourself!
17:33:45 From Vanessa Hill : I recognise that slide….its mine
17:34:18 From peter rowlands : Stein gave us the reference
17:35:33 From Vanessa Hill : no he didn’t I found it
17:36:23 From Vanessa Hill : its from one of our earlier talks
17:37:45 From peter rowlands : It’s in our published papers
17:39:49 From Joseph Brenner : Memory is holographic, then?
17:40:09 From Mark Johnson : it must be, don’t you think?
17:41:09 From Doug Matzke : some people believe that, I believe it is hyperdimensional quantum bit protospacetime.
17:41:37 From Doug Matzke : that is spacelike
17:46:39 From Joseph Brenner : Hyperdimensional, yes. Quantum bit not necessarily.
17:52:11 From Joseph Brenner : Decoherence?
17:52:14 From Richard Heiberger : youtube of the powers of 10 movie
17:52:16 From Richard Heiberger :
18:16:26 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Mia Farroq
18:17:07 From john torday : FArrow
18:17:09 From Fredric Young : Mia Farrow
18:17:54 From john torday : Sun Yee
18:20:57 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : Geoffrey West in ’Scale’ also looks at paradigm shifts
18:22:16 From john torday : In my opinion, Geoffrey West’s ‘Scale’ is descriptive, not mechanistic
18:22:36 From Vanessa Hill : Paul Stammets the fungi man has an interesting theory re intelligence boost occurring by accidentally eating psycaledic mushrooms…
18:23:59 From john torday : Stammets sounds like a ‘fun guy’
18:24:45 From Vanessa Hill : old joke in the fungi field John….
18:25:31 From john torday : Every neuron, both in the brain and in the periphery has microtubules……I think mind/consciousness is distributive, not just localized in the CNA
18:26:10 From Barbara Gabrys : Yes I’ve watched Fantastic Fungi film on SM network on Wednesday. It will be in cinemas soon. Definitely worth watching for the photos of fungi. I can’t comment on the experience of taking magic mushrooms, not in my youth wasted on physics 🙂
18:27:02 From john torday : BTW, the iRNAs in us are identical with those in fungi
18:27:14 From Vanessa Hill : ooh I hope it was a good movie…been looking forward to seeing it
18:27:41 From Vanessa Hill : we have a lot similar to fungi including vit D synthesis
18:28:08 From Vanessa Hill : leaving your mushrooms in the sun prior to eating boosts vit D content
18:28:38 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : I agree, Johm, and re Geoffrey West – very interesting math’s
18:28:46 From Vanessa Hill : Stammets have found new medicines from fungi…fascinating subject
18:28:53 From john torday : But don’t mushrooms grow in the dark?
18:29:34 From Vanessa Hill : I see many in fields woods etc so no…they grow them in dark for food industry
18:29:56 From john torday : Thanks Nicola…..I think West has gained credibility because he’s operating in the vein of Systems Theory. But again, IMHO, Systems Theory only shows associations and correlations, not causation.
18:32:05 From Barbara Gabrys : Yes it’s a great movie though very American (no offence meant) Quite a few sub subjects to mull over. And mushrooms are born in the dark as they are begotten in the mycelium. The latter serves as a communication network for plants, and stretches everywhere under our feet. Exciting and scary in equal measure!
18:33:26 From Barbara Gabrys : Mycelium is like neural network in our brain
18:33:53 From Nicola Graves-Gregory : As you know, I’m with de Chardin that teleology needs to be recognised as well as causality. And correlations are the 3rd – this could relate to glial cells?
18:34:35 From john torday : Frantisek Baluska, the German Botanist, has shown that plants have their ‘brains’ in their roots, i.e. the geotropism is the opposite of animals, orienting upward
18:34:48 From Barbara Gabrys : But then of course mushroom come to the surface as you can see on the walks in the wood
18:35:54 From john torday : They have to surface in order to generate energy….is what Baluska says in that regard
18:36:56 From Vanessa Hill : or maybe to spread spores further aield…
18:37:03 From Vanessa Hill : afield
18:37:24 From john torday : Regarding brains, holograms and politics, there was a classical study done at UCLA in which the investigators could predict whether their MRI subjects were Republicans or Democrats…..of course Trump didn’t generate any data…
18:40:27 From john torday : Vanessa, regarding spreading spores, the testes are highly polymorphic in their position in the body, inside/outside….and in Man, the cremaster muscle determines the position of the testes conditionally. I think that’s largely because testosterone inhibits clotting, so if you are in combat, the hormone that drove you to ‘fight’ may result in you bleeding to death…..think ‘Sumo Wrestler’
18:46:01 From Vanessa Hill : im not going to join you as I have family arriving soon. So wish you all the best and many thanks to you all for all the great talks
18:47:27 From Graham Ellsbury : Apologies but I don’t think I’ll be able to make 20.00 this evening 🙁
18:48:00 From Mark Johnson : Thanks Vanessa!
18:48:04 From Mark Johnson : Thanks Graham!
18:52:41 From Pat Toms : Thanks to everyone for a stimulating event! Lok forward to more in the future
20:18:23 From Richard Heiberger to Mark Johnson(Privately) : i chawed my mind, I can say something about where my thinking is going. not what I had previously thought i would present.
20:19:45 From Mark Johnson to Richard Heiberger(Privately) : ok
20:24:30 From Rachel Moore to Mark Johnson(Privately) : I have a very short thing to share as a follow up to my talk actually if there is time to tack me on at the end!
20:35:15 From john torday : Lou’s is a ‘knotty’ question
20:38:40 From Mark Johnson to Rachel Moore(Privately) : yes – of course – sorry, I missed you
20:54:13 From Rachel Moore : THAT IS SO COOL ANDREW
21:00:42 From Richard Heiberger to Mark Johnson(Privately) : andrew is still on spotlight

ANPA Summer Conference Closing Plenary.

ANPA 2020 talk for Mark Johnson by Mike Horner.

Sometimes I like to be a behavioural scientist.

My studies are in communication with people always “after in the bar”.

Some of my experiments are recorded in a group named “That’s the way things are”.

Today I report on an experiment in that group called “Whole page reading”.

  • Nearly 100% of the study reported that they sometimes read a whole page of text at once.
  • This unexpected capability cannot be predicted, lasts briefly and is a wonderful experience.
  • John von Neuman and other Aliens had the capacity permanently.
  • Speed reading lessons assume everyone can do it.
  • Most significantly I spoke to my mother as a specialist for children entering school.

She said “all children can do that until they are taught how to read properly

Change mode now and examine the text so far.

  • “after in the bar” indicates Sir Stafford Beer
  • “That’s the way things are” indicates the film Babe
  • The words “John von Neuman & Aliens” indicates all Hungarians & Enrico Fermi

None of these names were mentioned but I am sure Mark got them.

taught how to read properly exemplifies possible changes to educational practices. At a certain level this is the main point. At another level this is an example of what Alan Watts called Myths and ANPA folk say is dogma. Several ANPA speakers urged us to examine our own models and consider alternatives.

Observations of my own.

How is it that while reading properly or in whole page mode we still understand the meaning. It seems the meaning is a property of the whole or of a hierarchy of wholes. (Holons)

I ask you now to seriously consider concepts from Joseph Brenner. In his important contribution, all entities have dual aspects he names Actual and Potential.

I have adapted his work and my remarks should not diminish his. For me, the Actual aspect requires a description compatible with our largely Newtonian 3D + T space suited to our conscious self and brain. The Potential aspect requires a description in which everything is connected to everything and is the context for the mind, and the unconscious. Does this ring any bells, is this a spooky story? Reading in the proper way implies an Actual context. Reading in either mode lets in the Potential.

The Potential context seems to imply a memory of everything written in a Universal scheme of representation which Lou, Rachel and Lynclaire are exploring. The Quaternion cluster of Rowlands, Williamson and the Mike /Doug duet are exploring a mathematical variant.

Whenever I come to ANPA I realise there are fellow travellers and now we can connect easily.

Thank you all for stimulating thoughts which I will add to my internal model. (Thanks to Wolfgang).

Thanks especially to Mark Johnson who contributed so much to a successful ANPA online.

See you all online

Mike Horner


  • Stafford Beer has chapter notes in his books and claimed good ideas and discussion were always “After in the bar”.
  • Babe is a film based on the notion that a Pig could be taught how to herd sheep. The film is peppered with wise sayings including “that’s the way things are”.
  • The words John von Neuman and other Aliens refers to a statement by Enrico Fermi who was asked did he believe in aliens. Fermi replied, “I do; I am surrounded with them, people call them Hungarians.”
  • The Hungarian genius John von Neuman was allegedly capable of whole page reading.
  • Alan Watts in his book entitled “The Book” described the current state of the world and blamed humanity for hanging on to out of date myths.
  • Holons is a term often used by Arthur Koestler who was one of the first people to try and cross the science humanities divide with some success.
  • “Does this ring a Bell” could invoke John Bells theorem which precipitated the EPR work?
  • “Spooky action at a distance” was Einstein’s response to EPR.

My research program originally called “The model” was intended as a private program with no external purpose or constraints. When my research partner died, I decided to record the project, use the results, and connect to other peoples work. The current label is “Apply physical systems theories to social systems.” I am now deep into Social systems theories and have found synergies with ANPA and other work. My hope is to contribute to Sustainability and International Relations. Both are part of International Geneva near to where I live. I am also active in finding new ways of financing “alternative” research.


Michael Horner
1 Chemin des Rannaux
1296 Coppet
+41 79 202 4617


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